Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

MMA Superfights

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • MMA Superfights

    This board probably isn't loaded with MMA fans, but I expect to get more intellectual responses here than at a fighting forum. So I've been thinking today about a few matchups with the idea of seeing if a supreme fighter would rise above them all, an Achilles of our time if you will. So give me your opinion on each of the following matchups. We're going to assume each fighter is in his prime (so the newer guys don't have an advantage on the old guys) and fighting at an equal weight.

    1. Fedor Emelianenko vs Cain Velasquez

    2. Jon Jones vs Anderson Silva

    3. Winner of #1 vs Winner of #2

    4. (Wildcard) Dan Henderson vs Junior Dos Santos

    5. Winner of #3 vs Winner of #4

    Personally, I think Jon Jones comes out of this tournament the victor. He has too much length for the heavyweights when it comes to striking. He's still great with takedowns, submissions, and grappling defense (so a guy like Velasquez wouldn't have an easy time). He would just overpower Silva. We may not have seen the best of Jones either.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 08-23-2013, 02:10 PM.

  • #2
    You assume Jones will overpower Silva, but you say they're fighting at an equal weight. Also, you're talking about reach advantages, but you have to imagine scaling the fighters. I think this thought experiment (*) is so fraught with problems that nobody can say. So I pick BJ Penn to win the entire thing.
    The Champagne of Beards

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      You assume Jones will overpower Silva, but you say they're fighting at an equal weight. Also, you're talking about reach advantages, but you have to imagine scaling the fighters. I think this thought experiment (*) is so fraught with problems that nobody can say. So I pick BJ Penn to win the entire thing.
      Just entertain me...

      Striking power is all about torque, similar to swinging a bat/club or throwing a ball/spear. Silva could add weight to match Jones, but I don't think he could add enough power to match Jones in that department. Bone structure plays a role here.

      Plus, when we say "overpower", we don't just literally mean raw strength. I think we often mean striking dominance in general. Jon Bones has a big reach advantage on Silva, and that would help him land more punches regardless of his power advantage.

      It would be a close fight, thanks to the great skill and intelligence of both guys, but Bones simply has the numbers on his side.
      Last edited by wiltondeportes; 08-23-2013, 02:23 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        IMHO, THE supefight has already happened Fedor vs. CroCop.

        Rutten vs Cain Velasquez would be interesting.

        Comment


        • #5
          All things being equal, and all fighters in their prime, I'm saying gsp or bj penn takes it all. Perhaps even liddell or couture. In their prime, those dudes were all untouchable. Of the guys listed, silva. A reach advantage doesn't mean anything when the smaller fighter knows how to fight as a smaller fighter. It's when they try to fight as a bigger guy that they get in trouble.

          Comment


          • #6
            If we're making all things equal (a fairly silly proposition, but hey), I'm gonna have trouble betting against GSP.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Primal Bill
              I don't know about Liddell. Don't get me wrong he was extremely tough, but pretty wild and not an accurate striker. I don't think he's the same caliber of fighter as the other u guys listed
              Agreed. He is most definitely a wildcard. Not the same caliber as the other guys, but virtually impossible to take down, and fists like bricks, he has much more than a puncher's chance.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                A reach advantage doesn't mean anything when the smaller fighter knows how to fight as a smaller fighter.
                Explain that. The smaller fighter may know how to fight like a smaller fighter, but the bigger fighter can also know how to fight like a bigger fighter. Reach has always been a clear advantage in most types of fighting that I have seen or participated in. Some fighters have gotten by without it, but they had other exceptional traits to make up the difference.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
                  If we're making all things equal (a fairly silly proposition, but hey), I'm gonna have trouble betting against GSP.
                  GSP doesn't seem to have a game that would scale up against bigger opponents. He has a great athletic advantage in his weight class, but he's 170 with a 6'2" reach. Put him against Silva, who's 185 with a 6'6" reach, and I don't think he has the same success. Put him against an even bigger guy like Jon Jones, and I think GSP gets overwhelmed.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                    GSP doesn't seem to have a game that would scale up against bigger opponents. He has a great athletic advantage in his weight class, but he's 170 with a 6'2" reach. Put him against Silva, who's 185 with a 6'6" reach, and I don't think he has the same success. Put him against an even bigger guy like Jon Jones, and I think GSP gets overwhelmed.
                    Wait, I thought we were making everyone the same weight and height? I'm confused. So if GSP and whoever else are the same size/weight/whatever...I wouldn't bet against GSP. Great defense, super-technical...I dunno. He's like a robot that sits there and analyzes everything you throw at him, then finds your weakness and exploits it. Although I've seen a bit less of this in recent fights than in years past--he's gotten a bit conservative and afraid to lose, I think...but in his prime?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
                      Wait, I thought we were making everyone the same weight and height? I'm confused. So if GSP and whoever else are the same size/weight/whatever...I wouldn't bet against GSP. Great defense, super-technical...I dunno. He's like a robot that sits there and analyzes everything you throw at him, then finds your weakness and exploits it. Although I've seen a bit less of this in recent fights than in years past--he's gotten a bit conservative and afraid to lose, I think...but in his prime?
                      Well, there's two different questions worth answering. I was saying that the fighters must stay in their own body, but they can add as much muscle as they want (no limit; for instance Silva adds 20 lbs to fight Jones at 205, but Jones can also add 30 pounds to fight Silva with a large weight advantage still). Your question is the quintessential pound-for-pound question.

                      I'll take Jon Jones in an exhibition match with no weight limit, but I would take BJ Penn if I could clone his skills onto Jones' body.
                      Last edited by wiltondeportes; 08-30-2013, 03:41 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                        Explain that. The smaller fighter may know how to fight like a smaller fighter, but the bigger fighter can also know how to fight like a bigger fighter. Reach has always been a clear advantage in most types of fighting that I have seen or participated in. Some fighters have gotten by without it, but they had other exceptional traits to make up the difference.
                        Specifically, fighting from the inside is successful if you have the skillset. And in mma, you can instantaneously eliminate a reach advantage by utilizing kicks or just going to the ground. A reach advantage in mma isn't nearly as advantageous as it is in boxing

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                          Specifically, fighting from the inside is successful if you have the skillset. And in mma, you can instantaneously eliminate a reach advantage by utilizing kicks or just going to the ground. A reach advantage in mma isn't nearly as advantageous as it is in boxing
                          But what about the power advantage? Jon Jones hits a hell of a lot harder, and his length gives him the mechanical advantage, so he should theoretically be able to throw more punches than a smaller guy if Jones and the other guy are throwing the same punch power. In other words, more power and/or stamina.

                          That's just a discussion on punches, but the same applies to kicks.

                          As for grappling, long limbs can be lethal there too. Jones is able to make submission moves that most can't because their arms can't reach far enough.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                            But what about the power advantage? Jon Jones hits a hell of a lot harder, and his length gives him the mechanical advantage, so he should theoretically be able to throw more punches than a smaller guy if Jones and the other guy are throwing the same punch power. In other words, more power and/or stamina.

                            That's just a discussion on punches, but the same applies to kicks.

                            As for grappling, long limbs can be lethal there too. Jones is able to make submission moves that most can't because their arms can't reach far enough.
                            Speed and technique would allow a fighter to throw more punches, not reach and power. A flyweight can throw and land more punches in a minute than a heavyweight.

                            I don't doubt that jones is a talented fighter, just don't think he is "the one" out of all the guys we are discussing here.

                            Long limbs can be advantageous on the ground as well. But sheer jits expertise overrides that. If they were the same size, bj penn would twist jones up like a pretzel and send him home crying to his mommy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                              Speed and technique would allow a fighter to throw more punches, not reach and power. A flyweight can throw and land more punches in a minute than a heavyweight.

                              I don't doubt that jones is a talented fighter, just don't think he is "the one" out of all the guys we are discussing here.

                              Long limbs can be advantageous on the ground as well. But sheer jits expertise overrides that. If they were the same size, bj penn would twist jones up like a pretzel and send him home crying to his mommy
                              "More punches" does not refer to speed. It refers to stamina. Imagine the mechanics as if each part of the arm is a lever. Shorter-armed guys use more muscle to make their levers move at the same speed. Longer-armed guys can either equal the shorter guy's punch velocity and expend less energy, or they can exceed the shorter guy's velocity and expend the same amount of energy. And in actuality, they can probably find a 'sweetspot' of power where they punch easily but still exceed the shorter guy's velocity but also expend less energy than him.

                              Sure, jujitsu experience can help cover up weaknesses on the ground like having shorter limbs and weighing less. However, I'll make the same point that I did about the strikes. The bigger guy can still use his length and weight to benefit himself. This appears to still be an advantage for the bigger guy unless you can explain how jujitsu technique is not size-dependent, which I actually might agree with. The reason being is that now the shorter guy can apply great torque on the taller guy's joints with less effort than against a man of the same strength but with shorter arms. The reason is once again mechanical levers.

                              "Give me a lever long enough, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X