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  • #31
    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Thats why little guys dont fight bigger guys..
    Sometimes they do, like in the open category in judo! When I competed, it happened that I participated in the open division as well, often meting 150 -160 pound guys when being 209 pound myself. I never lost to any of them, but occasionally they gave me a good fight…
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

    - Schopenhauer

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Sometimes they do, like in the open category in judo! When I competed, it happened that I participated in the open division as well, often meting 150 -160 pound guys when being 209 pound myself. I never lost to any of them, but occasionally they gave me a good fight…
      For sure! Back in the day it was a free for all. Strength is king in that situation unless you have the skill of Royce Gracie or something.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Zach View Post
        For sure! Back in the day it was a free for all. Strength is king in that situation unless you have the skill of Royce Gracie or something.
        Yep, but in sports like boxing; one lucky punch from a smaller guy can finish a bigger man in the fraction of a second. And the same in Judo, one clean throw and the fight is over;

        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
          Yep, but in sports like boxing; one lucky punch from a smaller guy can finish a bigger man in the fraction of a second. And the same in Judo, one clean throw and the fight is over;

          Yup. The puncher's chance theory. Theoretically I could knock out mike tyson if I slipped his 2 and connected with a solid hook to his jaw. Now in practice, 99.9999999% of the time, it wouldn't happen.

          Skill, size, and strength are all in limbo with each other. That's why we were talking pound for pound earlier in the thread.

          Gracie dominated guys in the early ufc fights because 1-he is a mastermind and 2- none of those guys had ever competed in jits before. He wasn't a dummy who was going to try to box those meatheads.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
            Gracie dominated guys in the early ufc fights because 1-he is a mastermind and 2- none of those guys had ever competed in jits before. He wasn't a dummy who was going to try to box those meatheads.
            I do not know the history of early MMA very well, but I think that the Gracies were heavily involved in making the rules, so it is not unnatural that they dominated the sport for so long since it pretty much came from their own drawing table...
            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

            - Schopenhauer

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
              I do not know the history of early MMA very well, but I think that the Gracies were heavily involved in making the rules, so it is not unnatural that they dominated the sport for so long since it pretty much came from their own drawing table...
              Early UFC was a free for all. 15 minute rounds and if you didn't get submitted or KO'd another 15 minute round would begin. There was no such thing as a weight class and were far fewer rules than there are now including no gloves.

              The Gracie's created the UFC to show how much more effective BJJ was than any other martial art and they succeeded. That's why any top fighter in the UFC has had at least a purple belt in BJJ. Grappling changed world of martial arts and the Gracie's were the leaders. We (as fight fans and fighters ourselves) own the Gracie's a great commendation for what they did.

              But here we are 20 years later and now that every fighter has a strong ground game it's nothing new and no longer the dominant position. Fighters have to be well rounded, they have to be smart and they have to learn how to work on their feet or their opponent will out strike them.

              Again, my own opinion but everything else being equal, the best striker is more and more coming out on top and who are the best hand strikers in the world?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
                Early UFC was a free for all. 15 minute rounds and if you didn't get submitted or KO'd another 15 minute round would begin. There was no such thing as a weight class and were far fewer rules than there are now including no gloves.

                The Gracie's created the UFC to show how much more effective BJJ was than any other martial art and they succeeded. That's why any top fighter in the UFC has had at least a purple belt in BJJ. Grappling changed world of martial arts and the Gracie's were the leaders. We (as fight fans and fighters ourselves) own the Gracie's a great commendation for what they did.

                But here we are 20 years later and now that every fighter has a strong ground game it's nothing new and no longer the dominant position. Fighters have to be well rounded, they have to be smart and they have to learn how to work on their feet or their opponent will out strike them.

                Again, my own opinion but everything else being equal, the best striker is more and more coming out on top and who are the best hand strikers in the world?
                Agree. It's different rules now, they stand the fighters up at the drop of a hat, rounds are 5 minutes, and everything has grown more and more to favor strikers. And everybody's a "mixed" martial artist. No such thing as a true Jiu Jitsu fighter vs. kickboxer any more.

                Also agree that this thread makes no sense. One minute, we're saying we're imagining the size thing is made equal, the next Wilton's arguing that the bigger fighter has strength and reach advantages. It can't be both ways. It takes a huge technique advantage for a smaller guy to beat a much larger opponent, and that degree of technique differentials rarely exist among guys at the top level of the various weight classes. Occasionally a heavyweight rather than a super-heavyweight wins the absolute division of the Jiu Jitsu World Championships. But it's never a feather or lightweight. Just doesn't happen.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  Agree. It's different rules now, they stand the fighters up at the drop of a hat, rounds are 5 minutes, and everything has grown more and more to favor strikers. And everybody's a "mixed" martial artist. No such thing as a true Jiu Jitsu fighter vs. kickboxer any more.

                  Also agree that this thread makes no sense. One minute, we're saying we're imagining the size thing is made equal, the next Wilton's arguing that the bigger fighter has strength and reach advantages. It can't be both ways. It takes a huge technique advantage for a smaller guy to beat a much larger opponent, and that degree of technique differentials rarely exist among guys at the top level of the various weight classes. Occasionally a heavyweight rather than a super-heavyweight wins the absolute division of the Jiu Jitsu World Championships. But it's never a feather or lightweight. Just doesn't happen.
                  The thread's concept isn't that complicated. The point was two understand two different variables, optimum skill and optimum body. It just gets complicated when you use real life people where the variables are ugly.

                  Another reason I'm sure they favor strikers is for revenue. People like knockouts more than submissions.
                  Last edited by wiltondeportes; 09-15-2013, 06:33 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                    The thread's concept isn't that complicated. The point was two understand two different variables, optimum skill and optimum body. It just gets complicated when you use real life people where the variables are ugly.

                    Another reason I'm sure they favor strikers is for revenue. People like knockouts more than submissions.
                    Optimum skill will beat out weight but if both skills are equal optimal weight will win. I'm considering conditioning as part of skill.

                    When I was taking BJJ I used to call my instructor spider because you couldn't tell his feet from his hands. No matter what I did I couldn't pin him and I out weighed him by close to 50 pounds. I remember getting so pissed off I literally picked him up and threw him across the ring. He just bounced to his feet and kept coming. Fricken skills man.

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