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  • #16
    Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    "More punches" does not refer to speed. It refers to stamina. Imagine the mechanics as if each part of the arm is a lever. Shorter-armed guys use more muscle to make their levers move at the same speed. Longer-armed guys can either equal the shorter guy's punch velocity and expend less energy, or they can exceed the shorter guy's velocity and expend the same amount of energy. And in actuality, they can probably find a 'sweetspot' of power where they punch easily but still exceed the shorter guy's velocity but also expend less energy than him.

    Sure, jujitsu experience can help cover up weaknesses on the ground like having shorter limbs and weighing less. However, I'll make the same point that I did about the strikes. The bigger guy can still use his length and weight to benefit himself. This appears to still be an advantage for the bigger guy unless you can explain how jujitsu technique is not size-dependent, which I actually might agree with. The reason being is that now the shorter guy can apply great torque on the taller guy's joints with less effort than against a man of the same strength but with shorter arms. The reason is once again mechanical levers.

    "Give me a lever long enough, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes
    It sounds like you are saying that bigger/longer fighters have better stamina and can therefore throw more punches. Maybe I am misunderstanding you though. I think stamina/conditioning are individual things, and not size dependant at all. In fact, I think that hard work will only take you so far in that regard too. Some people just have more stamina than others no matter how much conditioning work they do.

    I totally get what you are saying about mechanical advantage, but I actually think when skill and technique are involved in something (not just fighting) there are many ways around size. Why is it that a 5'8", 165lb pitcher can generate the same force as a 6'2", 205lb guy can? How come randy johnson didn't throw 125mph? Dude was 6'10" or something. I think size only takes you so far. Skill is the ultimate equalizer. A 135lb fighter with 10 years experience would destroy a 185lb guy with 1 year experience. This is only true to an extent though. At some point in time, size and strength will overtake technique. No way a 135lb guy is making brock lesnar tap out, no matter how much technique the little guy has
    Last edited by not on the rug; 08-31-2013, 08:13 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
      It sounds like you are saying that bigger/longer fighters have better stamina and can therefore throw more punches. Maybe I am misunderstanding you though. I think stamina/conditioning are individual things, and not size dependant at all. In fact, I think that hard work will only take you so far in that regard too. Some people just have more stamina than others no matter how much conditioning work they do.
      That's exactly what I'm saying. It's assuming all other things are equal.

      Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
      I totally get what you are saying about mechanical advantage, but I actually think when skill and technique are involved in something (not just fighting) there are many ways around size. Why is it that a 5'8", 165lb pitcher can generate the same force as a 6'2", 205lb guy can? How come randy johnson didn't throw 125mph? Dude was 6'10" or something. I think size only takes you so far. Skill is the ultimate equalizer. A 135lb fighter with 10 years experience would destroy a 185lb guy with 1 year experience. This is only true to an extent though. At some point in time, size and strength will overtake technique. No way a 135lb guy is making brock lesnar tap out, no matter how much technique the little guy has
      But the skill differences are small at the UFC level, right? Isn't it an advantage to be Jon Jones versus even a guy like BJ Penn?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
        That's exactly what I'm saying. It's assuming all other things are equal.


        But the skill differences are small at the UFC level, right? Isn't it an advantage to be Jon Jones versus even a guy like BJ Penn?
        Assuming all things are equal then, stamina/conditioning are still independent of size. As a general rule, the more muscle mass a person carries, the worse their conditioning is.

        I think skill level differences depend on the fighters. Clearly, some fighters are better at jits and want to take every fight to the ground and some are better at stand up and want to remain standing. So there can be huge differences in skill level in any given fight. As for a penn/jones fight, penn is probably superior in every given discipline, including conditioning. I do give jones the nod in creativity. Dude definitely throws some interesting strikes from interesting angles.

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        • #19
          A real MMA superfight may finally be coming up, Aldo vs. Pettis. A lot of UFC talk this year about a champion vs. champion bout, but with Silva's loss to Wiedman and most of the talk having centered around GSP vs. Silva or Silva vs. Jones, those clearly aren't happening for a while, if at all. Pettis vs. Aldo would be incredible, way more exciting than Benson vs. Aldo would've been.

          Also, it's a much closer fight in terms of size. As much as I'd love to see either of the Silva fights, the size differences really are much greater. GSP is considerably smaller than Silva, and even though Silva has fought at 205, Jones is just so big for a LHW. Jones vs. Cain would probably be a closer fight actually. Jones cuts so much to fight at light heavy (walks around at 230 or so I believe), plus he's so young that he's still actually growing. I think he probably has to work at keeping his muscle down. Jones fighting at heavyweight at some point in time is almost inevitable I think.

          It'd be nice to see any of them really, I feel like it's time, they owe us one. Since none of the guys at the higher weights seemed too interested, and Pettis actually called for it and volunteered, I think it'd be a great option. But Aldo's still injured though, and Pettis doesn't even have one defense yet. Even if it does happen, I'm sure they'll push it off for a while.

          Fedor > Everyone.
          Last edited by TheChokingGame; 09-02-2013, 07:32 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
            Assuming all things are equal then, stamina/conditioning are still independent of size. As a general rule, the more muscle mass a person carries, the worse their conditioning is.

            I think skill level differences depend on the fighters. Clearly, some fighters are better at jits and want to take every fight to the ground and some are better at stand up and want to remain standing. So there can be huge differences in skill level in any given fight. As for a penn/jones fight, penn is probably superior in every given discipline, including conditioning. I do give jones the nod in creativity. Dude definitely throws some interesting strikes from interesting angles.
            I gotta agree with NOTR for conditioning and stamina being independent of size. If anything you would make the opposite argument that greater reach and size would lead to less stamina rather than more. You have to move all that mass a further distance for effect. Look at lifters too. Short limbs make the movements easier to perform greater reps in many instances. Less movement necessary to accomplish one rep vs a fella with longer limbs.

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            • #21
              I have to agree with Neckhammer on this one too. Look at Clay Guida. His conditioning is insane but I don't even think he's had a title fight. He's just not accurate enough.

              And what about GSP's next fight with Hendricks? Hendricks hits like a brick. He actually reminds me of Tyson with some of his looping rights but as a boxer GSP has really come along way.

              Personally I think that the better boxer in any match will start winning fights because that seems to be the weak point of all the fighters.

              Benson looked a little sheepish that he got caught in that arm bar too. He stepped the wrong way. Did anyone notice that?

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              • #22
                Report: Emelianenko vs. Cro Cop rematch booked for November - MMAmania.com

                yup.

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                • #23
                  Fedor.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Zach View Post
                    Fedor.
                    Aleksander, this time.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by WeldingHank View Post
                      Aleksander, this time.
                      I saw that, should be cool although i think Mirko is over the hill. My answer was for the OP's question though. Fedor > all.

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                      • #26
                        Here's the issue I have with the argument that a small guy with superior technique (like let's say GSP or Penn) could take on a legitimately skilled and well-rounded heavyweight like Bones Jones (at 240 or so), Velasquez, or Fedor. I understand that the smaller guy can use some grappling to his advantage, but that's clearly all that he can do. This is a substantial strategical disadvantage, and a quality heavyweight with well-rounded should be able to exploit it and beat the littler guy like a rag doll. I also know from competitive wrestling experience (albeit not BJJ, but still) that just 10 or 20 pounds is a HUGE advantage in grappling.

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                        • #27
                          Thats why little guys dont fight bigger guys..

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Zach View Post
                            Thats why little guys dont fight bigger guys..
                            In sport, sure. I'm thinking of applications to real life though.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                              In sport, sure. I'm thinking of applications to real life though.
                              Nah, if both fighters are skilled, the bigger person will win nine times out of ten.

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                              • #30
                                Yeah I mean thats why there are weigh classes....

                                I'm so confused about this thread. Thought it was based on the, albeit unrealistic, hypothetical that size was not an issue... i.e. everyone was the same weight class. So a best "pound for pound" fighter so to speak.

                                Heck, wrestling weight classes go up by 5-10lb divisions. When you are sub 10% bf your talking straight 5-10lbs of muscle difference. That shit adds up, and it begins to take an exponential amount of greater skill, speed, agility, conditioning and other nontangebales to make up for even that 5-10lbs of muscle gap.
                                Last edited by Neckhammer; 09-15-2013, 08:53 AM.

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