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  • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
    You have no idea what you're talking about. BJJ is the superior ground game, and the superior not-getting-put-on-the-ground game. Shou shu is LARP.
    Now, I have no problem learning a variety of arts. I think there can be a 'better' art but it's unlikely there is a 'perfect' art out there. A little Sambo or Jiu Jitsu would be a great contrast to a primarily striking art. I don't know if I would want to use it though if I could avoid it.

    Let me quote a conversation over this stuff from another forum. Let me know what you think....

    BJJ mate: "95% of street fights go to the ground so if you haven't done any ground work and some guy with any idea of how to handle himself on the ground comes up against you and you both go to the ground then you're gonna get choked out"

    KF mate: "well you better not go to the ground then"

    BJJ mate: "yeah but 95% go to the ground"

    KF mate: "be the 5% that don't"

    BJJ mate: "it's not so easy against a guy who knows how to take you down."

    KF mate: "it's not so easy to take down a guy who really doesn't want to go down there, who knows how bad it gets down there and what can happen, and has spent much effort learning and training how not to go down there"

    BJJ mate: "but if you end up on the ground, what are you going to do?"

    KF mate: "don't end up on the ground"

    BJJ mate: "but 95% of fights end up on the ground"

    KF mate: "sounds like marketing to me. Look, why do you want to go to the ground in a survival situation when this is the absolute worst place ever to be? It is one thing when it is just you and one other, and you are both on the ground. But even then if you start getting in trouble, you've already lost several degrees of freedom. You're on the ground. S/he's on top of you. You can't flee. There is less room to reposition. So you are are still alive, yes, but with less degrees of freedom - less options. When it is your life at stake, you want options. In the ring, under watch of a thousand spectators, with a referee, you always have one BIG option that you don't have in so-called "street" fights. You can OPT to tap out, or throw in the towel. In a true survival situation this option is lost, so you want to keep as many others in your pocket as you can. Now, add a touch more realism - it's not just the two of you; he has friends. Maybe you can wrestle one guy, if you are incredible, two, but can you wrestle a crowd? Go to the ground and you get your head stomped, your spleen, liver and kidney's ruptured, a haemopneumothorax. Someone has time to grab a stick or pull out their knife. No options left.

    BJJ mate: (silent for a bit) "Yeah but if the fight goes to the ground..."

    KF mate: "Don't go to the ground"

    BJJ mate: "Yeah, but if it does"

    KF mate: "Don't go to the ground. I don't know anything much about wrestling, and if I was training to be a great wrestler and be invincible in competition, maybe I'd try to take everyone down and then go for submission as quick as possible. I don't know. But I'm training for survival. I'll do everything I can to keep on my feet and keep moving. I don't want to wrestle even if I'm on my feet. Keep moving, moving moving."

    BJJ mate: "yeah but if it goes to the ground wouldn't you be better off if you'd learnt how to grapple a bit. At least you'd have some kind of chance at getting back up"

    KF mate: "true, I've never trained the ground and while there are similarities between how you move when on the ground and how you move on the feet, I would be a fish out of water. I hate it down there. I don't ever want to go there. If I did you can bet I would fight like absolutely crazy to get back up. We do end up on the ground on occassions, and all we learn from being there is what a terrible place it is to be - lots of poking fingers and punching fists and big shoes coming from every direction. But, I think that training to go to the ground is dangerous because it trains you to think that you always have a contingency plan. Yes, another option, but it is an option that leads to less options. Better to turn the cauldrons and throw out the pots. Give yourself only one option, maximise it's importance in your mind - to stay on your feet or die - and it is amazing how well you stay on your feet"

    BJJ mate: "I'm sure it's not that easy."

    KF mate: "I can assure you it's not"

    BJJ mate: "no one can beat 6 guys anyway. If you had to face 6 guys trying to kill you then you're screwed"

    KF mate: "well you may as well just lie down and let them kill you then..."

    BJJ mate: "well you're stuffed. You can't tell me you can beat 6 guys."

    KF mate: "I'd never try. I'd probably get killed. Trying to win is the problem here. I am talking survival. Competition is not survival. In terms of martial arts, competition training and survival training are just as different as are dancing and survival training. You don't have to win. Don't try to beat the guy = don't try to wrestle = always keep moving = don't go to the ground. To put it simply, at the end of it all if you're not on the ground and still standing, then you HAVE survived haven't you? All I'm saying is what we do at our club is spend all our time learning how to survive. Competition is great fun. I love watching fighting sports. Most styles, especially the modern styles are founded on the spirit of competition, and almost exclusively one-on-one competition - pitting yourself against one other in a controlled environent. Our style was founded on the spirit of survival. To use whatever it is you as an individual, at whatever level of training, at whatever state of health or preparedness, have available at any given time to survive whatever situation comes your way, however random, left-field or uncontrolled - this is survival. Survival is a big, big problem, because by definition there are no rules to simplify things. Survival is also for everyone: the weak, the tough, the smart the dumb. It's what we are all doing at every moment of every day, to greater or lesser degrees of success. It is the act of pitching your spirit against adversity and not breaking. It's the art of turning adversity into advantage. It's just a different approach. It's never pretty. It's very humbling. There's always the temptation to try to win - to dominate, to triumph, to inflate your own ego, to seek end-points. But, unless there is a huge differential in skill level between the one and the many, the multiple attackers will always "win", you just have to survive. If at the end of the day you're still standing, and not on the ground, then maybe this is your victory. It takes a lot of persistence and a different attitude to training that many can't accept. The result of our training is that rather than feeling more and more confident in self-defence situations, we actually begin to feel more and more threatened - we know what can happen and we want to avoid it. It's what we do. Some people don't get this approach - they hate it. We like it. We love it."
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-01-2013, 04:24 PM.

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    • One of my best fights was when drunk as balls man- maybe because I was drunk, it was all muscle memory and reflexes or something, but I fought basically a club full of people, cinema style, and managed to lay a bouncer down with a sweet elbow to the cheek/eye socket, hip toss cartwheel a guy and stomp him, and land many excellent punches, knees, and kicks to opponents that were surrounding and rushing me. (ultimately defeated and seized by many bouncers and thrown down stairs)


      Another time, a guy got me in a headlock randomly at a party: after stalking around me obsessively trying to find offense and start shit, he eventually gave up trying to find a pretense, came over as though to shake my hand, and turned that into some kinda arm bar headlock.

      I think that he learned it in some kinda training, because it had the feel of technique and practice to it, and once he locked it, he seemed content to just hold me there until I passed out or something.

      But, (and I note this on the rare occassion that I do catch some kinda mma shit on tv), my hands were still relatively free at the wrist, and near his face.

      So, now he will never again see out of his left eye, and he is only alive because the back of the eye socket is a motherfucker to figure out how to penetrate when you are in a headlock. But I plucked that optic nerve like an upright bass string, and what looked like egg yolk came out his ears even.

      Worst one was when I was maybe 19, just after high school, some bullying asshole that was my manager at a sandwich place was offended to the point of violence that I believed retarded people were gross to look at or be around. He ran and grabbed me by the throat and threw me up on a counter- I was pretty fucked. I grabbed a knife though and we were then at an impasse. I would never voluntarily grapple a man, because who knows what blade is somewhere within his reach.
      "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

      Jack london, "Before Adam"

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      • lol I think I missed a page...I thought the post immediately above mine was from Gorbag about drunkeness and self defense.
        "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

        Jack london, "Before Adam"

        Comment


        • Judo, Sambo and Olympic wrestling all teach a good take-down defense and thatís very important in a real self-defense situation, because you should avoid getting to the ground by all means. That said, if ending up on the ground you should know how to fight there, to finish your opponent as fast as possible and to get up on your feet as fast as possible. In all the judo clubs I have trained we always did half of the practice standing and half on the ground, but in a fight-for-your-life situation you should count on a good takedown defense and stay on your feet as long as you can, donít go to the ground if you can avoid itÖ

          Last edited by Gorbag; 06-02-2013, 09:40 AM.
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

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          • So Wilton, your criticism of Jiu Jitsu is that it emphasizes being able to survive in a "Plan B" scenario instead of pretending you're always going to be able to avoid said scenarios? Or are you still building on your strawman/lie that Jiu Jitsu teaches pulling guard and attempting an armbar as a self-defense technique? You're talking out your backside, my friend.
            The Champagne of Beards

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            • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
              So Wilton, your criticism of Jiu Jitsu is that it emphasizes being able to survive in a "Plan B" scenario instead of pretending you're always going to be able to avoid said scenarios? Or are you still building on your strawman/lie that Jiu Jitsu teaches pulling guard and attempting an armbar as a self-defense technique? You're talking out your backside, my friend.
              Jiu Jitsu emphasizes being able to survive a "Plan B" scenario. Correct.

              Let's go back to the idea that "most fights end up on the ground". There's an often quoted stat that has become assumed fact. I looked up the history on this and found something surprising. First of all, it was a study on conflicts between police officers and their arrestees.
              -The study said that there were 316,525 arrests made in this particular year, and 2,031 altercations developed from them.
              ------This means 0.6% arrests were altercations.
              ------------90% of their altercations followed 1 out of 5 familiar patterns.
              ---------------------Out of this 90% of all altercations, 62% of them ended up on the ground.

              Going to the Ground: Lessons from Law Enforcement



              Points:
              1. The often quoted stat that 80-90% of fights end up on the ground or that most fights end up on the ground is totally misquoting a statistic.
              -------The correct number to use this study would be 62%.
              2. This study is not a valid representation of street fighting.
              -------The goal of police officers is to neutralize.
              --------------grappling and a "ground game" is the best way to neutralize
              -------The goal of a street fighter is to get the fight over as soon as possible.
              --------------They don't want 3 rounds of 3 minutes.
              ---------------------In an equal match or a match where you have the advantage, letting the match drag on leaves more room for mistakes
              ---------------------In a match where you have the disadvantage, letting the match drag on decreases your chances of winning
              --------------The best mindset of a streetfighter is to gain the advantage as soon as possible and use it as soon as possible before there is a change in momentum





              A second study was administered by Bakari Akil II PhD. I'm not putting too much importance on these numbers to support my point, but they still fit quite nicely. I will quote what this man said about the study, and I put a link to his eBook below the quote.

              Out of over 300 fights roughly 70 ended up with both fighters on the ground due to a takedown or tackle of some sort and only 126 ended with both people on the ground at all. So based on this particular study the findings show that less than 50% of the time you will be on the ground and only just over half of that will it be due to a takedown, trip or being dragged down. Almost 40 of those 126 incidents of both parties being on the ground was due to a punch being the takedown tool.
              Amazon.com: Report - Do Most Fights go to the Ground? + MUSCLE -The Beginning eBook: Bakari Akil II PhD: Kindle Store

              Points:
              1. According to this study, only 23% of street fights involved ground grappling.

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              • Now, we've been discussing grappling on the ground.
                ---Jiu Jitsu and other grappling arts involve more than that.
                -------There are joint locks and throws from the standing positions too.
                -------------Shou Shu DOES have this!
                -------------------However, the goal is never or almost never to "neutralize".
                -------------------The goal is to dislocate, break, and immobilize as quickly as possible.
                ---Shou Shu also has SOME ground game, but most of the stress is put on defending against grappling techniques and getting back on your feet.
                -------There are no attacks in the ground grappling game because Shou Shu would rather that you get on your feet.
                Last edited by wiltondeportes; 06-03-2013, 03:41 AM.

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                • I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to my art or boast that I know something better than everyone else. I opened this can of worms on the best tactical empty-handed or primitive-weaponed fighting system, and I'm just trying to see it to end.

                  Comment


                  • Neutralization arts are great for law enforcement and sports. They are not great for self-defense.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by wiltondeportes View Post
                      ---Shou Shu also has SOME ground game, but most of the stress is put on defending against grappling techniques and getting back on your feet.
                      -------There are no attacks in the ground grappling game because Shou Shu would rather that you get on your feet.
                      "Defending" and emphasizing getting back to your feet are asking for trouble. In an actual real attack, by someone determined to harm you, you need to end things, and end them quickly. Prolonging a fight one second longer than necessary just puts you at more risk.

                      I've also always disliked the idea of "defending" oneself. Once someone has decided to try and do me harm, I'm going on the offensive and getting things done. Defending leads to getting hurt.

                      Sent via A-10 Warthog

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                      • In my highly uneducated opinion, any form of training that pitches you one on one against another human being is totally awesome. I just started my classes, and it is something completely different. But I find the self-defense moves atm hellishly difficult.
                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                        • Originally posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
                          "Defending" and emphasizing getting back to your feet are asking for trouble. In an actual real attack, by someone determined to harm you, you need to end things, and end them quickly. Prolonging a fight one second longer than necessary just puts you at more risk.

                          I've also always disliked the idea of "defending" oneself. Once someone has decided to try and do me harm, I'm going on the offensive and getting things done. Defending leads to getting hurt.
                          Kinda goes right along with:

                          Originally posted by John Kreese
                          We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition: A man confronts you, he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy
                          The Champagne of Beards

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
                            "Defending" and emphasizing getting back to your feet are asking for trouble. In an actual real attack, by someone determined to harm you, you need to end things, and end them quickly. Prolonging a fight one second longer than necessary just puts you at more risk.

                            I've also always disliked the idea of "defending" oneself. Once someone has decided to try and do me harm, I'm going on the offensive and getting things done. Defending leads to getting hurt.

                            Sent via A-10 Warthog
                            Shou Shu is all about attacking. The philosophy is simply to attack in other ways than the ground game. The ground game defense is thrown in there for 'just in case scenarios'.

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                            • I'm watchin some Shou Shu demos on youtube, and this guy is talking about drills to develop peripheral vision reflexes and I feel awesome- I realized this theory on my own years ago, and train almost daily since then in staring at my wife's breasts while she throws punches. She can't touch me anymore if I don't want her too and I can pluck her wrist outta the air with fingers-on-specific-wrist-points precision, after so much practice.
                              "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                              Jack london, "Before Adam"

                              Comment




                              • this old dude's definitely the shit though
                                "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

                                Jack london, "Before Adam"

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