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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    I am trying to recall a time that I saw someone with some kind of superior technical training use some kind of superior technique against an angrier, more aggressive opponent and win, and I can't recall a single example.

    Lots of memories of various thugs beating asses nonetheless though.
    How about UFC 1 and 2?

    How many fights do you tend to witness? What percentage of people hold even a medium belt rank in Jiu Jitsu? What are the chances these were the people you saw get beat up? Pretty slim?
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      If I had to generalize a "plan of action," I'd say it's to keep enough distance that they can't hit you. There's a sort of half stomp/half sidekick to the thigh/knee that's very effective for this. It's one of the first several techniques in Royler and Renzo's book. Royce used it in early UFC's. Rickson used it in Pride and other Japanese fight organizations. I have used it in amateur MMA in at least 3 of my 4 fights.

      Sometimes you're late and that's not an option. Sometimes you have to clinch. Clinching means getting so close to the person that they can't hit you. If you can get an underhook and an overhook and get to the side, you can make the guy basically carry your weight around while being unable to hit you. You can push him up against a wall or a car or a telephone pole if he's not so big and strong. And if you can't, you can put him on the ground if you have to. Not yourself.

      There are self-defense techniques where you place a limb on the ground, but I'd say they're all for "late-sequence" events (e.g. you missed other opportunities to stay out of problem spots) and you never fall to the ground, you always place whatever body part it is down in a controlled manner.
      My point is that you either run away, or you take the fight to the ground. I don't see another outcome for a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner in a self defense situation. My question was how applicable the takedowns are when you're dealing with concrete, not a sparring mat.

      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      You seem to have a cartoonish view of Jiu Jitsu like the strip mall dojos with the 7 foot trophies in the front window.
      Not really. Not sure why you would suggest that I do.

      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      To turn the tables, what martial art/combat sport offers a better plan of action for that scenario? If not Jiu Jitsu, then what?
      I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say a combination of things, with JJ being an important part of it.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by quikky View Post
        My point is that you either run away, or you take the fight to the ground. I don't see another outcome for a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner in a self defense situation. My question was how applicable the takedowns are when you're dealing with concrete, not a sparring mat.
        If you can get away safely, you do that. If you still want to fight the guy, invite him to the academy for a no rules fight, winner keeps the videotape. Google "Gracie Challenge" if you want to see some examples.

        If you can't get away safely, you get close. Once you're close, you may be able to apply a standing submission or you may be able to put the guy on the floor. Or you may just hold the guy in a safe hug until help comes. Obviously not a good plan if he has 3 friends with crowbars. It's all situational. But never have I seen any of the Gracies or the people who learned from them advocate what you'd recognize as a "takedown" in a self-defense situation. Not sure how much more clearly I can say that.

        Originally posted by quikky View Post
        Not really. Not sure why you would suggest that I do.
        Because of statements like this:

        Originally posted by quikky View Post
        My point is that you either run away, or you take the fight to the ground. I don't see another outcome for a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner in a self defense situation.
        Originally posted by quikky View Post
        I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say a combination of things, with JJ being an important part of it.
        Which things? Unless you're going to get into a choreographed movie fight, you're going to escape conflict or get all up close and personal with someone you're fighting. You don't have a referee to break you up and make the other guy box or kickbox you. Some judo and wrestling? Sure. A good Jiu Jitsu guy has some judo and wrestling skills. Unless you plan to be the aggressor. In which case the self-defense question is not really the matter being discussed any more.
        The Champagne of Beards

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        • #34
          How about UFC 1 and 2?

          How many fights do you tend to witness? What percentage of people hold even a medium belt rank in Jiu Jitsu? What are the chances these were the people you saw get beat up? Pretty slim?
          well, the OP isn't a young professional fighter, and, I thought from the context, is talking about regular street fighting.

          I have also never seen a fight where both fighers were sober either, now that I think about it. I just don't think that you are talking about combat in the contexts that it actually happens.
          "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

          Jack london, "Before Adam"

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
            well, the OP isn't a young professional fighter, and, I thought from the context, is talking about regular street fighting.
            Nobody in UFC 1 or 2 was a professional MMA fighter. I'm not talking about modern day sport MMA with rounds and gloves and weight classes. That's why I specified UFC's 1 and 2. You should google them. Or Gracie Challenge videos. They're mostly kept secret, but several have been put out there and can be found on YouTube.

            Originally posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
            I have also never seen a fight where both fighers were sober either, now that I think about it. I just don't think that you are talking about combat in the contexts that it actually happens.
            There you go. The ultimate self-defense strategy is sobriety.

            The fact is, nothing you train is going to make you immune to a sucker punch. If you get knocked or dragged down, pushed against a wall or other immobile object and you have decent Jiu Jitsu skills, there's a good chance you'll get out of there mostly in one piece, even against a bigger, stronger, more aggressive opponent.

            If you're alone and you get attacked by a mob of angry drunks, you're gonna come out of it in rough shape no matter what kind of Jackie Chan moves you think you can pull off.

            Learning and practicing by training against fully resisting opponents will always translate better to a real situation than not doing so.

            Grappling skills will just about always be more useful than striking in a real world attack. Once you knee-on-belly a guy, you don't need to be an expert puncher. The superior position more than makes up for a disparity in boxing skills once the guy can't hit you.

            This has been shown to be the case time and time again (see above). The fact that you've witnessed a few alcohol-fueled morons lob wild haymakers at one another doesn't negate any of it.
            The Champagne of Beards

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
              If you can't get away safely, you get close. Once you're close, you may be able to apply a standing submission or you may be able to put the guy on the floor. Or you may just hold the guy in a safe hug until help comes. Obviously not a good plan if he has 3 friends with crowbars. It's all situational. But never have I seen any of the Gracies or the people who learned from them advocate what you'd recognize as a "takedown" in a self-defense situation. Not sure how much more clearly I can say that.
              Do you spend a lot of time working on standing submissions? Are standing submissions likely to work on someone bigger and stronger than you? Does JJ emphasize standing with someone?

              My view is that JJ is primarily about grappling and ground game. Is it not?

              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
              Which things? Unless you're going to get into a choreographed movie fight, you're going to escape conflict or get all up close and personal with someone you're fighting. You don't have a referee to break you up and make the other guy box or kickbox you. Some judo and wrestling? Sure. A good Jiu Jitsu guy has some judo and wrestling skills. Unless you plan to be the aggressor. In which case the self-defense question is not really the matter being discussed any more.
              Striking comes to mind. How often do you exchange hard strikes while sparring? I'd imagine in a self defense situation, strikes from the aggressor would be the primary danger, not joint locks and chokes. If you never learn to strike, and especially to really take strikes, you can't say its practice alone is the best for self defense. Just like Royce Gracie beat opponents because of his BJJ, so did Chuck Liddell due to his superior striking. I'm sure Chuck's JJ is not world class, and yet he fought guys with better JJ than him, only for the fights to end with their KOs without ever him touching the ground.

              I'm not trying to argue that JJ is ineffective, I'm just trying to point out that it has flaws. To answer the question "if not JJ, then what?", my answer would be MMA (+ carrying a weapon, but we're talking about martial arts). MMA training including JJ is better than just JJ training.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                Do you spend a lot of time working on standing submissions? Are standing submissions likely to work on someone bigger and stronger than you? Does JJ emphasize standing with someone?

                My view is that JJ is primarily about grappling and ground game. Is it not?
                Most of the specifically self-defense oriented techniques take place on the feet. And we practice the standing submissions (which work just fine on larger, stronger opponents), keeping the distance, and putting the opponent on the ground without going to the ground with him. As well as getting up off the ground. Your view is uninformed. Or informed by travelling Jiu Jitsu tournaments, which are not indicative of the program as a whole.

                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                Striking comes to mind. How often do you exchange hard strikes while sparring? I'd imagine in a self defense situation, strikes from the aggressor would be the primary danger, not joint locks and chokes. If you never learn to strike, and especially to really take strikes, you can't say its practice alone is the best for self defense.
                How about to use grappling to negate strikes? You don't have to strike to neutralize a striker. You have to control the distance. This is emphasized.

                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                Just like Royce Gracie beat opponents because of his BJJ, so did Chuck Liddell due to his superior striking. I'm sure Chuck's JJ is not world class, and yet he fought guys with better JJ than him, only for the fights to end with their KOs without ever him touching the ground.
                So your solution to surviving an attack from Chuck Liddell would be to out-strike him? How did that work out for most of his opponents? To echo my (Royce's) refrain: If not Jiu Jitsu, then what?!

                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                I'm not trying to argue that JJ is ineffective, I'm just trying to point out that it has flaws. To answer the question "if not JJ, then what?", my answer would be MMA (+ carrying a weapon, but we're talking about martial arts). MMA training including JJ is better than just JJ training.
                For a sanctioned fight, you can't make it only doing Jiu Jitsu any more. The rules and the skillsets of the opponents have changed too much. But this is where Perfidy's point about the cage not being the same as the street are valid. You're talking about 2 people trying to fight each other, not an attacker and a person who's trying to make it out of there safely.

                Georges St. Pierre and Anderson Silva are both world-class strikers and excellent Jiu Jitsu practitioners. But I doubt either of them gets picked on too often. If you're a regular guy with only 5 or 6 hours a week to devote to self-defense training, I'd argue that you'll get the most return out of investing all those hours in Jiu Jitsu, for the reasons elucidated above.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  Most of the specifically self-defense oriented techniques take place on the feet. And we practice the standing submissions (which work just fine on larger, stronger opponents), keeping the distance, and putting the opponent on the ground without going to the ground with him. As well as getting up off the ground. Your view is uninformed. Or informed by travelling Jiu Jitsu tournaments, which are not indicative of the program as a whole.
                  I don't doubt you train standing technique, I just doubt a lot of emphasis is given to it, and I think JJ's effectiveness is largely on the ground, where you can get more leverage and are able to use your legs more.

                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  How about to use grappling to negate strikes? You don't have to strike to neutralize a striker. You have to control the distance. This is emphasized.
                  Sure, but for that you have to practice grappling against full-speed good strikers. Do you do that in a BJJ class? When you're practicing standing submissions, are you allowed to knee each other, or elbow each other in the face?

                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  So your solution to surviving an attack from Chuck Liddell would be to out-strike him? How did that work out for most of his opponents? To echo my (Royce's) refrain: If not Jiu Jitsu, then what?!
                  No, but to be better prepared against someone like him, would you choose to spar with a master BJJ practitioner, or with a master striker?

                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  If you're a regular guy with only 5 or 6 hours a week to devote to self-defense training, I'd argue that you'll get the most return out of investing all those hours in Jiu Jitsu, for the reasons elucidated above.
                  You might be right. However, I would think training other fighting components such as striking would be better than JJ alone. I would imagine if you would dedicate some of that time to seriously train boxing, for example, you would be exposed to a higher level of strikers. You could still choose to use BJJ, but you would be better trained for dealing against other types of fighting.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by quikky View Post
                    I don't doubt you train standing technique, I just doubt a lot of emphasis is given to it, and I think JJ's effectiveness is largely on the ground, where you can get more leverage and are able to use your legs more.
                    Most real-life fights end up on the ground. Shouldn't the emphasis match the reality?

                    Originally posted by quikky View Post
                    Sure, but for that you have to practice grappling against full-speed good strikers. Do you do that in a BJJ class? When you're practicing standing submissions, are you allowed to knee each other, or elbow each other in the face?
                    You think good strikers represent the majority of attackers? Who practices kneeing and elbowing each other in the face full-bore?

                    Originally posted by quikky View Post
                    No, but to be better prepared against someone like him, would you choose to spar with a master BJJ practitioner, or with a master striker?
                    To survive if he were to attack me, I'd feel 1000 x better prepared with my present level of Jiu Jitsu skills than any level of striking skills I'll ever achieve.

                    Originally posted by quikky View Post
                    You might be right. However, I would think training other fighting components such as striking would be better than JJ alone. I would imagine if you would dedicate some of that time to seriously train boxing, for example, you would be exposed to a higher level of strikers. You could still choose to use BJJ, but you would be better trained for dealing against other types of fighting.
                    If you have time to get good at all of them, what you're saying makes perfect sense. Most people who step onto the mats show up 2-3 times a week, which hardly gives them time to get decent at Jiu Jitsu over the course of several years. Divert their attention and you've got yourself a proverbial jack of all trades, master of none.

                    You can learn to throw all the punches in 3-6 months. After that, your boxing training is mainly comprised of getting quicker and stronger and increasing endurance. I've spent thousands of hours on the mats at Jiu Jitsu and I learn new things every single day (and I don't go to class on the short bus). I wouldn't trade any of the time I've spent learning Jiu Jitsu for striking. And I have fought MMA (never saw Chuck Liddell across the cage, fortunately).
                    The Champagne of Beards

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      Most real-life fights end up on the ground. Shouldn't the emphasis match the reality?
                      Sure but there should also be emphasis on defending against your opponent's ability to strike you any way they see fit.

                      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      You think good strikers represent the majority of attackers? Who practices kneeing and elbowing each other in the face full-bore?
                      Practicing sparring a good striker will make you better able to defend yourself against a mediocre/poor striker in a real fight. No one practices anything truly full-bore, but any specific martial art like JJ, places restrictions and rules, that are applicable to the specific practice, on what you can do, which don't apply to a self defense situation. Obviously many things, such as biting, using weapons, etc., are not allowed due to safety considerations, but many are also not allowed simply because they are not practiced in the martial art, such as elbowing, and serious striking in the case of JJ.

                      Why can't I punch you in the face when we're on the ground during a JJ training session? Certainly in a real right this restriction would not exist, nor would you be trained to handle it because you avoided it in training.

                      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      To survive if he were to attack me, I'd feel 1000 x better prepared with my present level of Jiu Jitsu skills than any level of striking skills I'll ever achieve.
                      I think it's fair to say that your survival against Chuck Liddell would depend entirely on Chuck Liddell's mood at the time of the beating.

                      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      If you have time to get good at all of them, what you're saying makes perfect sense. Most people who step onto the mats show up 2-3 times a week, which hardly gives them time to get decent at Jiu Jitsu over the course of several years. Divert their attention and you've got yourself a proverbial jack of all trades, master of none.
                      Not necessarily. I just think combining JJ with other martial arts would make your ability to defend yourself, and even your JJ on its own, better.

                      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      You can learn to throw all the punches in 3-6 months. After that, your boxing training is mainly comprised of getting quicker and stronger and increasing endurance. I've spent thousands of hours on the mats at Jiu Jitsu and I learn new things every single day (and I don't go to class on the short bus). I wouldn't trade any of the time I've spent learning Jiu Jitsu for striking. And I have fought MMA (never saw Chuck Liddell across the cage, fortunately).
                      You don't have to learn striking to use it instead of JJ for self defense. You can simply use it on top of JJ and to get used to being struck. For example, you mention how you can use grappling to deal with a striker. Well, you don't really deal with serious striking in JJ training, so how can you become more effective at defending against it? If you took boxing, just as an example, and sparred with people who had superior boxing skills than you, you would learn how to deal against this specific striking better, and would be able to apply your JJ training better, because you are more adapt at receiving punches.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by quikky View Post
                        Sure but there should also be emphasis on defending against your opponent's ability to strike you any way they see fit.
                        There is. But trained fighters tend to strike very differently than drunk guys who pick on people in bar parking lots.

                        Originally posted by quikky View Post
                        Practicing sparring a good striker will make you better able to defend yourself against a mediocre/poor striker in a real fight. No one practices anything truly full-bore, but any specific martial art like JJ, places restrictions and rules, that are applicable to the specific practice, on what you can do, which don't apply to a self defense situation. Obviously many things, such as biting, using weapons, etc., are not allowed due to safety considerations, but many are also not allowed simply because they are not practiced in the martial art, such as elbowing, and serious striking in the case of JJ.
                        Agree with you. It's hard to practice against someone truly trying to bludgeon, bite, claw or dismember you. I think you are looking at sport Jiu Jitsu and drawing the inference that we don't practice these things as realistically as possible and safe. I'm disagreeing with that inference based on 7 years of experience doing that very thing.

                        Originally posted by quikky View Post
                        Why can't I punch you in the face when we're on the ground during a JJ training session? Certainly in a real right this restriction would not exist, nor would you be trained to handle it because you avoided it in training.
                        If I'm holding you in knee-on-belly? Because your arms aren't likely long enough. If they are, you're probably over 9 feet tall.

                        Originally posted by quikky View Post
                        I think it's fair to say that your survival against Chuck Liddell would depend entirely on Chuck Liddell's mood at the time of the beating.
                        Surely I agree. Better chance I can talk him out of the beating while I hold on to him than if I return fire and try to punch him in the face. Again, if Jiu Jitsu doesn't have the answer, who does? That's my argument. That nobody has the answer to make a pencil-necked geek able to survive the onslaught of Chuck Liddell. That's not a shortcoming of Jiu Jitsu.

                        Originally posted by quikky View Post
                        Not necessarily. I just think combining JJ with other martial arts would make your ability to defend yourself, and even your JJ on its own, better.
                        We always recommend that people get a base in Jiu Jitsu before branching out to the striking arts. Some people come to us with other experience. It's all good stuff, but if you have to start from scratch, Jiu Jitsu gives you the most bang for your buck, and watering down your training by showing up at Jiu Jitsu less and going to Thai Boxing 2 nights a week will leave your Jiu Jitsu subpar. I've seen it plenty of times.

                        Originally posted by quikky View Post
                        You don't have to learn striking to use it instead of JJ for self defense. You can simply use it on top of JJ and to get used to being struck. For example, you mention how you can use grappling to deal with a striker. Well, you don't really deal with serious striking in JJ training, so how can you become more effective at defending against it? If you took boxing, just as an example, and sparred with people who had superior boxing skills than you, you would learn how to deal against this specific striking better, and would be able to apply your JJ training better, because you are more adapt at receiving punches.
                        I agree. If only we all had the time to become good at several things...

                        I have found that most people have a hard enough time getting proficient in one.
                        The Champagne of Beards

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                        • #42
                          As far as martial-arts for self-defense, the objective would be to either win the fight or disable the attacker(s) long enough to escape. For both striking or grappling, standing up would be better. You can win the fight either on the ground or standing up, but it's a lot easier to flee if you're already on your feet. For me, hand-to-hand would come after situational awareness, guns, knives, and non-lethal weapons have all failed.
                          In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

                          This message has been intercepted by the NSA, the only branch of government that listens.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post



                            I agree. If only we all had the time to become good at several things...

                            I have found that most people have a hard enough time getting proficient in one.
                            THIS!!! I train BJJ twice a week and my gym has a MMA(striking and no gi bjj) class that I try to make once or twice a week. There just isn't enough time for a guy with a family and a business to run to get really good at any one thing much less multiple disciplines. I just feel that you can get better at jui jitsu because you can "spar" at close to 100% intensity.
                            I do have a friend who is an amateur mma fighter and we spar and roll after class a couple of times a month which really helps. Nothing like getting your ass kicked by a 6' 5" 230lb guy every once in awhile to teach you a few things.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by ecole66 View Post
                              . Nothing like getting your ass kicked by a 6' 5" 230lb guy every once in awhile to teach you a few things.
                              Try getting your ass kicked by a 5'6 155lb guy. But yeah, of course it's better to get someone to throw some leather at you. Like my instructor always says: The Jiu Jitsu doesn't change, just the rules change.
                              The Champagne of Beards

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                                ...

                                I agree. If only we all had the time to become good at several things...

                                I have found that most people have a hard enough time getting proficient in one.
                                I think we agree overall.

                                In an ideal world, you would strive to master Jiu Jitsu and also become proficient in other martial arts.
                                In a more realistic world, you would focus on Jiu Jitsu.
                                In the real world, most people won't have the discipline/desire/commitment to do anything for a long enough time to matter anyways. In which case, maybe pepper spray and/or weapon would be even better.

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