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Experience report - A trail marathon in ketosis

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Keto Ted View Post
    elenius,

    So glad to read your experience with ketogenic endurance. I am undertaking a very similar experiment with an ultramarathon, 50k. Its my first, so I'm starting slow. I too bought the meter, and have to recommend it to anyone trying to actually get into ketosis. I think that 50g carbs is probably too much for most people, myself included. Additionally, the meter will tell you if your protein intake is too high, which most of us easily overlook. Ketosis is all about LOTS of fat. I also am pretty sure that diet beverages can keep you out of ketosis, as they do solicit an insulin response.

    I was also glad to read that your training was so informal and short. I am undertaking a 3 run a week program, with total weekly mileage under 20. Way out there in the terms of "classic" training, but I think its smarter to prevent injury.

    I'm blogging about it, Ted Van Slyck | Curious, industrious, motivated if anyone is interested in how it goes for me. P
    I should clarify that I certainly don't recommend to anyone to train like I do I'm just not that interested in running lots and lots of miles. So many other fun things to do, and I prefer to be well-rounded athlete. Plus, I tend to injure myself when I run too much.

    Good luck on your 50k, I'll check out your blog too.

    One hack that allows you to eat a bit more carbs is to eat some coconut oil. I have been taking two tbsp a day, one of them before workouts.

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    • #17
      Thanks for following my blog guys!

      About a week and a half in, training going really well. Just did hill repeats today, never felt so strong in all honesty. At least two cups of broth a day (2 bouillon cubes) is what it is taking to keep me feeling good. Sodium intake is SUPER important. Totally agree with the coconut oil. Coconut oil is a medium-chain triglyceride, which makes it different from other fats. When you eat it, it gets broken down a lot faster and gives a direct, measurable bump in my ketone level. I make sure to eat some every day. I just ran out of ketone strips, omg are they expensive. I am buying them from American Diabetes Wholesale for $2.80 a strip. I know someone who gets them from a Canadian Online drugstore for more like 2, but she actually needs them for her health. I don't actually need to measure everyday, so I didn't go through the hassle.

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      • #18
        really appreciate your race report. I've race ultra in 3 sports and know the level of detail involved. Really enjoyed this report.
        ----------------------------------------
        F, 48, 5'10"
        Start Date: 25-06-12 @ 161lbs
        Goal Reached: 30-09-12 @ 143lb. Now bouncing between 145lb - 149lb. I'd like less bounce and more consistency :-)

        Started Cross Fit 20.12.12 ---- Can't wait to submit my success story on the 1st anniversary of starting primal.

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        • #19
          Cool stuff. I ran a 50k this year and just ate watermelon slices at the aid stations and drank water. When I am training for a marathon I will never eat anything before and during my longs runs, I just bring water with me.

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          • #20
            Thank you for your post. Great details, and clarity.

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            • #21
              I climbed My. Kilimangaro in ketosis. (Actually it's in Tanzania.) That was of course, trail *walking/hiking* not running but it also involved some serious high altitude adaptation.
              I really think the ketosis helped to keep a steady level of energy going for extended periods of time over several consecutive days.

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              • #22
                This sounds really cool. I've been looking for a way to gain some energy while losing weight.

                Without the instruments, are there any telltale signs to look for that will indicate that you are in ketosis? Do you ever incorporate intermittent fasting into your regime?

                Also, are there any foods that can sneak into a paleo diet that can slip you out of ketosis?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by PrimalSailor View Post
                  This sounds really cool. I've been looking for a way to gain some energy while losing weight.

                  Without the instruments, are there any telltale signs to look for that will indicate that you are in ketosis? Do you ever incorporate intermittent fasting into your regime?

                  Also, are there any foods that can sneak into a paleo diet that can slip you out of ketosis?
                  I am one day into a four day fast right now. One of the best ways of knowing you are in ketosis is the ability to fast without feeling like you are going to fall over. It's been 24 hours since I ate and I am hungry but I feel like I could do anything I normally would do in the way of physical activity.

                  The biggest mistake paleo/primal folks make about ketosis is overdoing all the wonderfully primal meats. Excess protein can hinder you getting into ketosis or staying there.

                  The blog of Dr. Peter Attia, The Eating Academy, is a really great resource on the subject.

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                  • #24
                    Right, I think I might be a little guilty of that.

                    So, I just want to beat this until I really know how to get myself into a stable ketosis.

                    How is dairy? I am a big homemade yogurt and cheese lover (like 20% of what I consume at home)

                    Also, should one in ketosis monitor their vegetable intake to prevent breaking the carb limit? I feel like I'm missing out on a lot of nutrients when I start looking at starchy vegetables as something to be enjoyed in moderation. On a regular paleo diet, I did not care at all about what vegetables I was consuming.

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                    • #25
                      Congratulations on your very successful event Elenius!! Cynthia and I are flattered you have linked our MDA submission on your post (very cool).

                      The body is quite amazing. Since our submission, I have continued testing ketogenic racing. Just a few weeks ago I accomplished Ironman Mont-Tremblant in a fasted state from dinner the evening prior. My race morning consisted of coffee and some coconut water. From then on it was water and salt tabs.....except for the small coconut water I had in my run special needs bag (mid-narathon). It was an amazing experience of which I shared in many of your observations (steady energy, quick recovery, etc). My time was definitely slower as compared to prior Ironman events.....but this is something I was absolutely not concerned about. My primary goal was to go the distance fasted and most of all to enjoy the journey (didn't even wear a watch....first time racing without one). I felt completely liberated. I have to admit I was also inspired as I watched the sugar-burners load up on gels and colored sugar water laced with un-Primal garbage.

                      Again - great of you to initiate this post and share your experience! Cynthia and I will be at PrimalCon and are hoping to share and meet many more enthusiasts.

                      Paul Grosenstein | Facebook
                      http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...31259297_n.jpg
                      Last edited by IM_1406; 09-08-2012, 09:03 AM.

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                      • #26
                        I have a hiking buddy who is also an avid (but rather skinny fat) cyclist. He is constantly popping those gel cubes on hikes. Blech! The strange thing is that he seems to be much more prone to heat exhaustion than I do even though he is in good physical condition. It's pretty warm here in SoCal in the summer.

                        Does anybody have any data or studies that could support this anecdotal thought that sugar burners are more susceptible to heat stroke?

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                        • #27
                          I fall into the live low / train high camp myself, for many of the reasons you state in your concerns post. I completed the Tamalpa 50K @ Stinson beach in 6:23 on about 140 kcals / hr. Just Generation UCAN and Oskri Organics coconut bars + water. With 7500ft of elevation I am pleased with my results.

                          Good luck finding your "sweet spot" for your body. See you at the races.

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                          • #28
                            I find this stuff fascinating. Thank you so much for your experimentation and sharing such a great post! I am too doing some self-experimentation.

                            I am a fairly "serious" marathon runner (2:43 PR). After bonking hard in a marathon in November, I started researching of how I could prevent that in the future which led me to MDA, Ben Greenfield, and then eventually to reading The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Volek/Phinney. I had been following a pretty strict whole food, high carb diet, so their ideas were a pretty big swing for me. I followed Ben Greenfield's advice and trained low carb (under 50 grams per day) and raced high (ate a lot of sweet potatoes, rice, and UCAN Super Starch for a couple of days prior) for a marathon in January. No bonking at all (felt strong and consistent the entire race) and finished in 2:45.

                            So, I was not in ketosis during the race, but I am pretty sure I was in in for a lot of my training sessions. I would do most of my runs very early in the morning without taking any food prior (but I would drink a good dose of sea salt water to prevent dizziness and adrenal/cortisol problems), so I was usually in about hour 10 of a fast. I don't have a meter, but after reading Volek/Phinney, I am really interested in getting one mainly to figure out how to cycle in a high carb day and then return to ketosis. Greenfield recommends one or two high(er) carb days during the week so, from what I remember, that the body is fat fat adapted but still has enough carbs to do some intense work. By the way, most of my training was pretty low intensity, following phil maffetone's 180-minus-age heart rate formula.

                            Anyone cycling in and out of ketosis on purpose? If so, what carb and protein counts are you doing in and out of ketosis?

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                            • #29
                              1200 km Brevet in mountainous terrain, 35celsius

                              Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                              I have a hiking buddy who is also an avid (but rather skinny fat) cyclist. He is constantly popping those gel cubes on hikes. Blech! The strange thing is that he seems to be much more prone to heat exhaustion than I do even though he is in good physical condition. It's pretty warm here in SoCal in the summer.

                              Does anybody have any data or studies that could support this anecdotal thought that sugar burners are more susceptible to heat stroke?


                              Hi

                              I am a keen brevet rider and have recently got myself into ketosis is preparation for a very long (90hour) 1200 km ride over 3.75 days. schedule: day 1:400km day 2 :400km day 3: 300km day 4: 100km. minimum average speed 15km/hr including sleep stops etc. approximately 39000 kcals over the 3.75 days.

                              This will all be in searing Bulgarian heat on the 29th June onwards up and over the Balkan mountains twice!

                              If I wish to complete this mammoth entirely in ketosis , what sort of food and drink can I use during the event? coconut milk? coconut oil? cheese?

                              can I do this in ketosis do you think?

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                              • #30
                                I'm also looking to run a 50 miler on as low carb as possible.. At my best, I think I can get down to about 60-70 grams a day, but the problem is I love fruit and veg too much! Although, I can pretty comfortably run fasted up to 1:45 4 days a week, I still think I need a bit of help inducing more ketones so heres the thing:
                                1. What was the best diet plan? (What worked/tasted good also!)
                                2. Is is reasonable to think that I am keto adapted if I can maintain fasted runs most morning despite a higher carb intake? (I'm barely hungry afterwards.. I force myself to eat since I'm a bit too light although the book says this inhibits ketone production)
                                3. During my long sunday run, I find that If I eat a proper breakfast, I have run up to 5 hours without food intake on only water. Despite my perception of too many carbs for ketosis, would it be reasonable to assume that I am keto adapted?

                                P.S. I have the book, read it, re-read it, then read it some more. I'm not of a scientific mind, so I need Mr. Layman and his terms to help

                                Thanks

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