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  • #16
    Originally posted by quikky View Post
    As others have mentioned, if the weight is heavy, you cannot go too fast. The key thing is to maintain proper form and not drop into the squat, or relax important areas. Otherwise, go as fast as you please.

    I also don't know what he meant by leaning too far forward. If you're doing low-bar squats, and especially if you have long femurs and/or short torso, you can be leaning forward a good amount. There's nothing wrong with this provided the bar path is vertical and your spine is neutrally aligned and locked in extension.

    It could also be that you are losing thoracic extension, or in more common terms, not keeping your chest up, and raising your hips faster. This is what is often referred to as a "good morning squat". If this is this case, then it is a form issue.



    Ignore the bro-science. He probably wants you to look at the ceiling and breathe during the ascent/descent too.



    Of course it's harder. Hell, if I go as slow as possible with just the bar and take 30 seconds to descend, it will be hard too. Like I said, if your form is correct and you are not relaxing, you can go as fast as you want
    Yes this.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
      Where do you get this stuff from? Seriously! The second last paragraph makes no sense at all and the idea that fast movement isn't required is absolutely ridiculous.

      Seriously old school read some actual books on the science of lifting, getting strong and training athletes other than body builders and stop with the magazine articles and blogs of bro science! It's just brutal!
      I'm always open to reading any scientific data proving me wrong.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by OldSchhool View Post
        I'm always open to reading any scientific data proving me wrong.
        Here's 1 to get you started.

        http://www.uspla.org/sites/default/f...the_Use.31.pdf

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        • #19
          Originally posted by OldSchhool View Post
          I'm always open to reading any scientific data proving me wrong.
          I don't think it's that you're wrong, I think it's that you're answering a different question. But nobody's done a study that's any good comparing the effects of using explosive movements, like the power clean, along with the slow compound barbell lifts to doing the slow compound barbell lifts alone. Because the studies are done in the universities, usually last the course of a single semester, mostly on untrained young males or local elderly. We have to rely on the observations of coaches and lifters who have spent decades in the weight room, experienced actual training themselves, and can otherwise give us empirical data (yes, this is empirical data, whether or not it comes from a double blind study) about what works for getting strong.

          I'd love it if they could take a statistically significant number of people who actually train, separate them into 2 groups, and compare results between a group that does the olympic derivatives and one that doesn't over a reasonably long period of time. But people who train are not typically willing to undergo this type of experiment because they're training.
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • #20
            Using a lot of momentum to get more tension on connective tissue instead of contracting muscle fibers can make you lift more but is less effective for building real strength! Lifting MOAR =/= strength, so leave your ego outside the gym is what I recommend…
            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

            - Schopenhauer

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
              Using a lot of momentum to get more tension on connective tissue instead of contracting muscle fibers can make you lift more but is less effective for building real strength! Lifting MOAR =/= strength, so leave your ego outside the gym is what I recommend…
              Yeah, bouncing off connective tissue is not a good idea for general humans. Comeptitors who are willing to risk their long-term health and physiological integrity for a couple extra pounds on their meet total can have that to themselves as far as I'm concerned. Now a stretch of the actual muscle bellies, like the hamstrings at the bottom of the squat that precedes the eccentric is a totally different story in my book. I'm not talking about divebombing, just creating tension with a controlled eccentric.
              The Champagne of Beards

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Iron Will View Post
                I'm not really arguing one is better than the other. But what I'm gathering from this is that the "slow" group was not intentionally slow. They were hooked to some device that literally increased the load to slow them down....so we aren't just comparing speed of movement....we are comparing heavy vs light. The heavy/slow group was the one that saw the greatest strength gains measured by 1RM squat along with FACC group. The "fast" group worked at high speed with lighter weights and they saw the greater improvement for power measured by maximal countermovement jump test, but not as great as the FACC group (which is what? fast plus elastic bands is what I'm thinking from reading a couple times).

                So the FACC group did best in Division I athletes for strenth and power. So the group using chains and bands would find the most athletic advantage right? Enough to be challenging, but not so much as to slow the speed of movement too much. Thats not all that hard to believe. The authors do however point out that: " Finally, although variable resistance training has been shown to provide significant benefits, it may not be the best training method for every athlete. Athletes with a low training maturity may, in fact, benefit more from training targeted at increased maximal strength."

                This seems to tell me I might invest in some chains for my home gym .

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  I'm not really arguing one is better than the other. But what I'm gathering from this is that the "slow" group was not intentionally slow. They were hooked to some device that literally increased the load to slow them down....so we aren't just comparing speed of movement....we are comparing heavy vs light. The heavy/slow group was the one that saw the greatest strength gains measured by 1RM squat along with FACC group. The "fast" group worked at high speed with lighter weights and they saw the greater improvement for power measured by maximal countermovement jump test, but not as great as the FACC group (which is what? fast plus elastic bands is what I'm thinking from reading a couple times).

                  So the FACC group did best in Division I athletes for strenth and power. So the group using chains and bands would find the most athletic advantage right? Enough to be challenging, but not so much as to slow the speed of movement too much. Thats not all that hard to believe. The authors do however point out that: " Finally, although variable resistance training has been shown to provide significant benefits, it may not be the best training method for every athlete. Athletes with a low training maturity may, in fact, benefit more from training targeted at increased maximal strength."

                  This seems to tell me I might invest in some chains for my home gym .
                  This is really my point. I snapped off a bit this morning in my first comment to old school but really the point that I'm trying to make is that yes both the slow and the FACC gained equal strength but the FACC group increased power considerably more than the slow moving group. IMO Power is the deciding factor between a 1st string athlete and a bench warmer and everyone should train for it because more power will always equal bigger weights. Even if maximal strength has an insignificant deviation.

                  Also along your point of the slow group not intentionally going slow but that the weight was adjusted to only allow for slow movement would also suggest that to purposefully go slow the participant would have to use a lighter weight for the purpose of slow controlled movement. This isn't tested but again IMO the results should reflect the use of a lighter weight on over all strength and therefore have a lower overall strength level than either the slow or the FACC group. Possibly stronger but more comparable to the fast group but still with less force production.

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                  • #24
                    Thanks for all the replies...after I read them I realized I was pretty tired when I posted that and I actually reversed what was going on... I was going too fast on the descent and not pausing long enough at the bottom. Then going slow on the way up.

                    It seems when you drop down too fast you lose tightness which is a bad thing.

                    The other thing I'm working (besides forcing knees out further) on is not dropping down so low. Apparently I've been going too deep on a lot of my reps.

                    So even though I de-loaded by 50lbs I'm finding them as hard as ever.

                    But staying under tension the whole time is the key thing I guess, correct?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by StupidFatHobbit View Post
                      Thanks for all the replies...after I read them I realized I was pretty tired when I posted that and I actually reversed what was going on... I was going too fast on the descent and not pausing long enough at the bottom. Then going slow on the way up.

                      It seems when you drop down too fast you lose tightness which is a bad thing.

                      The other thing I'm working (besides forcing knees out further) on is not dropping down so low. Apparently I've been going too deep on a lot of my reps.

                      So even though I de-loaded by 50lbs I'm finding them as hard as ever.

                      But staying under tension the whole time is the key thing I guess, correct?
                      Under tension the whole time absolutely! Going to low? I don't think they're such thing. If you can get ass to grass then do it. 😊 If you're loosing tightness because your dropping too quickly then yes slow your decent just enough to continue loading the muscles into the hole. As for coming out you want to do that as quickly as possible. Of course with proper posture again.

                      Did the trainer tell you not to go past 90 degrees? 😕 Oh bother.

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                      • #26
                        ^ Glad to see we're on the same train of thought here after hearing what actually went down

                        ......Occam's razor I suppose. We are all sitting here contemplating the nuances of strenght vs power training and what impact reducing the overall tempo may have, but we forgot to get these simple truths that we all agree on down.

                        1. No such thing as too low
                        2. Slow enough to keep muscle tension...of course you shouldn't just slam down into the hole with no control!
                        3. Whatever your speed don't sacrifice your form (unless you are getting paid alot to eek out that .099% poor form may provide)

                        These truths we hold true....amen.

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                        • #27
                          One of my favorite articles on the topic:

                          Explosive Training | High Intensity Training by Drew Baye

                          Slow and steady wins the race people !

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                          • #28
                            Squatting without locking out on top also makes it damn harder! Let’s say a lifter can do six reps before locking out on top, and then take a pause resting and breathing before trying two or three more reps the same way. Then another pause on top and do rest pause singles with plenty of rest between reps until reaching 15 – 20 reps. The bar is kept on your back throughout the whole set, very hardcore…
                            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                            - Schopenhauer

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                              Squatting without locking out on top also makes it damn harder! Let’s say a lifter can do six reps before locking out on top, and then take a pause resting and breathing before trying two or three more reps the same way. Then another pause on top and do rest pause singles with plenty of rest between reps until reaching 15 – 20 reps. The bar is kept on your back throughout the whole set, very hardcore…
                              That's what I've been doing, stopping a few inches short of lockout to keep all the tension on my quads, makes a huge difference !

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by OldSchhool View Post
                                That's what I've been doing, stopping a few inches short of lockout to keep all the tension on my quads, makes a huge difference !
                                Yeah, the younger generations think lifting is only about loading more weight, while using every unwritten trick to take the tension off the muscles to make it more comfortable! I see it in my gym all the time how the people adjust the machines to make the exercise as easy as possible just because they can’t stand the feeling of the pain…
                                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                                - Schopenhauer

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