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NEWS - Lazy very-low-carber goes for run, does great, feels fine.

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Zach View Post
    Shit guys, i think knife is doing a shit ton of volume. I know i dont do a quarter as much as that. I also dont think i need or want to do more though.
    With a baby coming soon (or already born), this volume will shrink fast if he gets involved in fulfilling the baby's needs day in and day out.

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    • #77
      Today I ran the longest I've ever run, a 2.25 miler. Took me 18:55, and I did the first mile in 7 minutes. I never had to stop, but toward the last half-mile, my run did turn into a sort of jog. IDK how to objectively define this.




      If you are looking to "over-train" this will certainly fit the bill..... 4 days in a row of leg work.... and no time for them to rest? Yup... you'll hit the "wall"

      Good.



      Benchmarks for what?

      There is really nothing seriously in contention here.
      There IS a level of intensity times duration that is doable on high carb but not low.
      There is NO health benefit from that level of exercise. It's all performance or vanity.
      Look at the actual primal fitness blueprint. There is no problem meeting it on low carb.
      If you bonk then you're doing chronic cardio.

      If you meet any specified standard nobody is going to say they were wrong.
      They'll just say you could do more on high-carb. And probably be correct but so what?
      Well, shoot. I hadn't figured on that! But let's get some real numbers, and then I can roll over to high-carb and see whether or not I blast my LC numbers!

      I don't. It's difficult watching you struggle to workout, doesn't seem like it even feels good. Maybe it's just the way I read you but it seems like you're burned out. And with a baby coming this can't be a good time to drastically increase a workout schedule. I know you're trying to document all of your efforts to prove ketosis is a fine state to be in long term, but it doesn't come off that way at all. It would be interesting to watch you document displacing fat with whole food carbs and see how your performance changes. That would do a lot more to prove or disprove your point.
      Other than some mild soreness I feel like a raging tiger. This has been nothing but awesome so far. I WILL go higher carb once I'm actually trained and at some sort of plateau.


      But it FEELS hardcore to him
      Still waiting for anybody to describe better what sort of upper limit exists. Do I need to run 10 hours a day seven days a week?


      That's perfectly fine for a workout schedule, assuming the running days are of sufficient distance and pace (and yes, of course, work up to them!). It absolutely is not "overtraining" (again, assuming you work up to it). Personally I would replace "crazy push-up day" with a second LHT - ie, the A and B splits of a 5x5 like routine - but ultimately this is going to be driven by your own personal goals. I would also consider moving the sprint day to the second run day, and leaving one day for full blown rest.

      There's also no reason you can't have biking and LHT on the same day. My typical LHT day is a 5x5 workout sandwiched between two 10km bike rides (to/from the gym) and a 1km swim.

      But again - once the goals are defined, the schedule details sort themselves out naturally.
      I will mull this over for sure!


      i'm starting to think that a lot of people have a very low definition of what hard work actually is.

      i'm also starting to realize that a lot of people here are a lot lazier than they let on and certainly not leading active lifestyles. this would explain a lot of why everyone "thinks" they can do "loads" of exercise while eating vlc. I guess it's all relative
      This and this exactly. I've been coasting along, looking healthy, just barely doing bodyweight and sprints, short bicycle rides - sort of a ready-to-train, better-than-nothing mode. And that kept me healthy, for sure. But I want to find out what I can do, and what my low-carb limits are. So far, I've encountered nothing unusual. Just making newbie gains, bringing my cardiovascular endurance up and actually sweating a lot. It's still going to be awhile before I plateau. Months? I don't know. But a time will come when I'll try to add a mile to my run and either lose speed or have to walk. And then it will happen again and I'll assess. I am a fitness novice. Brand new, out of the box.

      There is a level of exercise where the objective value tapers off rapidly and the 'value' is something like feeling good about how hard you work.
      I see you're some kind of socialite. I have no opinion of you. Is that shocking?


      Shit guys, i think knife is doing a shit ton of volume. I know i dont do a quarter as much as that. I also dont think i need or want to do more though.
      Nope, me neither. Once this experiment is done, and repeated, I'll go back to grey-zone health-maintenance land.


      With a baby coming soon (or already born), this volume will shrink fast if he gets involved in fulfilling the baby's needs day in and day out.
      I can take baby running. Pushing a stroller might change the dynamic a bit, but the numbers should be stable.
      Crohn's, doing SCD

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      • #78
        For me, the real "wall" came after 6-8 months of low carb. And by low carb, I mean 30-100g daily. All from veggies and occasional fruit.

        My typical schedule at that time was 2 days of high intensity, crossfit styled workouts, involving tire flips, rope climbs, sprints, jumpropes, battle ropes, and weights. 2 days of heavy weight training. 1-2 days of boxing training. And severel short mountain bike rides, usually with a good 12-20 miler on the weekend. The shorter rides (20-30 min) were typically used as warmups on lifting days. I survived 6-8 months of this eating low carb clean paleo. And like I mentioned earlier, the bonking came on gradually with each workout. The progressively got worse. Clearly this is my experience. Ymmv

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        • #79
          For me, the real "wall" came after 6-8 months of low carb. And by low carb, I mean 30-100g daily. All from veggies and occasional fruit.

          My typical schedule at that time was 2 days of high intensity, crossfit styled workouts, involving tire flips, rope climbs, sprints, jumpropes, battle ropes, and weights. 2 days of heavy weight training. 1-2 days of boxing training. And severel short mountain bike rides, usually with a good 12-20 miler on the weekend. The shorter rides (20-30 min) were typically used as warmups on lifting days. I survived 6-8 months of this eating low carb clean paleo. And like I mentioned earlier, the bonking came on gradually with each workout. The progressively got worse. Clearly this is my experience. Ymmv
          This is good to know, thank you!
          Crohn's, doing SCD

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
            Today I ran the longest I've ever run, a 2.25 miler. Took me 18:55, and I did the first mile in 7 minutes. I never had to stop, but toward the last half-mile, my run did turn into a sort of jog. IDK how to objectively define this.
            Awesome sauce! Personally, I would suggest ramping the distance up slowly, methodically, with a "Couch to" type program, so all your connective tissue has a chance to keep up with the rest of you.

            Still waiting for anybody to describe better what sort of upper limit exists. Do I need to run 10 hours a day seven days a week?
            There are no limits. If you want to test the outer bounds of what a human body can accomplish, start training for an IronMan, or join the Army and go for Ranger School, or get a track bike and start racing at your local velodrome.

            You don't "need" to do anything - the question here is "What do you WANT to do?"

            If you're looking for what qualifies as a minimally acceptable level of fitness, I would say that if you can do all of the following, you're probably good to go:

            - run 5 miles in 40 minutes
            - do 10 chinups
            - squat and deadlift 1-1.5x your bodyweight


            EDIT: I also came from a very low carb lifestyle, over a year averaging under 50g/day. When I hit my wall, it was a bit sharper a transition than our friend up there. In the end, because being active was important to me, I completely revamped my macros - I am now high carb, high protein, low fat. This fits *much* better with my "500km a month" level of activity. Weight is melting off, fitness is improving leaps and bounds.
            Last edited by DeeDub; 09-30-2013, 02:46 PM.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
              This is good to know, thank you!
              Sure. Now I eat a lot more fruit and drink oj and fresh apple cider in season. I also have white rice, potatoes, and sweet potatoes pretty much on a daily basis. Putting me in the 100-250g daily range. And my workouts are fine. I will use a sports drink like gatorade occasionally, but not all the time

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                For me, the real "wall" came after 6-8 months of low carb. And by low carb, I mean 30-100g daily. All from veggies and occasional fruit.

                My typical schedule at that time was 2 days of high intensity, crossfit styled workouts, involving tire flips, rope climbs, sprints, jumpropes, battle ropes, and weights. 2 days of heavy weight training. 1-2 days of boxing training. And severel short mountain bike rides, usually with a good 12-20 miler on the weekend. The shorter rides (20-30 min) were typically used as warmups on lifting days. I survived 6-8 months of this eating low carb clean paleo. And like I mentioned earlier, the bonking came on gradually with each workout. The progressively got worse. Clearly this is my experience. Ymmv
                Your experience is pretty typical of a lot of people, myself included. But why do you think that is? Why is it that people can sustain a high level of activity on low carb for a couple months and then suddenly hit a wall? I'm trying to explain this to a friend who started a ketogenic diet a few weeks ago. He's already noticed an adverse effect on his workouts. I'm trying to explain to him that he will crash and burn eventually if he keeps it up. But I have no scientific explanation for it. The standard "you can't do high intensity workouts in a glycogen-depleted state" simply doesn't work because you are able to do high intensity workouts on low carb in the beginning. How do I explain this slow deterioration?

                My journal

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                • #83
                  I suspect the length of time until hitting that wall is closely tied to the type of exercise being performed, and to the "fat level" of the individual. Even at high levels of fat adaptation, there is a strict limit to the rate at which energy can be extracted from fat stores - the number I've seen tossed around is 25-30 calories per pound of fat per day.

                  So if you're carrying an extra 100 pounds, you have a 3000 calorie reservoir to draw on, at the rate of about 125 calories/hour.

                  Start playing with the numbers, and you can see there are combinations of starting weight and exercise type that can potentially stretch out the time frame for glycogen depletion. Eg, a skinny guy going out for a 50 mile bike ride is going to wipe it all out right away, while a big guy doing a 5x5 workout is going to hit his glycogen store for a much smaller amount.

                  And since most of the the low-carb crowd is coming at it from a position of extra weight and seems drawn to exercise more like LHT than to cycling, it would seem to make sense that it takes a while to hit the wall.

                  Anyway, those are my two cents on the subject...

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                  • #84
                    I agree. I only lost basically a handful of vanity lbs when I went low carb. That's all there was to lose.

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                    • #85
                      Your hormones crash. Stress hormones can only run you for so long.

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                      • #86
                        There is a level of exercise where the objective value tapers off rapidly and the 'value' is something like feeling good about how hard you work.
                        I see you're some kind of socialite. I have no opinion of you. Is that shocking?
                        Wow, that seems to be just completely opposite of the point I was trying to make.

                        There is an exercise and diet program that suits the results I care about for me.
                        Screw anybody elses standards of what is hardcore enough or too hardcare or anything else.

                        Now if somebody makes a rational point that a change in program would benefit MY goals better, that'd be great.

                        Anybody who knows me would absolutely collapse in laughter at me being called a socialite!

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                        • #87
                          Baby here. I've been in the hospital for days, will reassess and take up this silly plan as possible. Might end up using treadmill at work, ha ha. That's just yucky to type. Cardio is so bad! Maybe something like Insanity would be better...still low-carb, we brought a lot of our own food to the hospital and have been eating pot roast and broccoli as a default meal. Don't worry, I'm, still all about this, just have to get baby dialed into life.
                          Crohn's, doing SCD

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                          • #88
                            Félicitations!! Mega-congratulations to you guys! Welcome to your child
                            Boy ? girl ? name ?

                            Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                            just have to get baby dialed into life.
                            I like the "just" ... wait and see ...

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                              Baby here. I've been in the hospital for days, will reassess and take up this silly plan as possible. Might end up using treadmill at work, ha ha. That's just yucky to type. Cardio is so bad! Maybe something like Insanity would be better...still low-carb, we brought a lot of our own food to the hospital and have been eating pot roast and broccoli as a default meal. Don't worry, I'm, still all about this, just have to get baby dialed into life.
                              Congrats on the new arrival! Good luck with the "getting the baby dialed in"! You will be doing that until they leave home.... speaking from experience... I've kicked 5 outta the nest...... so to speak

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                              • #90
                                This guy has numbers! How a low carb diet affected my athletic performance (Part 4) « The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

                                Maybe my sprinting sucks because I'm low carb. The good news on that test: it won't take six months of killing myself to find out! I will keep sprinting at least twice a week, if not more, as my sole workout besides bodyweight (you can take my push-ups when you pry them from my cold, flat hands!). After a month of consistent low-carb sprinting, I'll go for max time. Then, I'll carb up for a month and keep going for it, and at the end of that month, go all out and see again if I've beaten my keto time. I'll just rig a string that stops a stopwatch.

                                Thoughts? It's a different experiment, but one that I can fit into my schedule better...

                                Maybe when spring comes I'll take on the exhaustomatic plan a page back...
                                Crohn's, doing SCD

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