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Old Schools ' NO Bull$hit ' Training Discussion Thread !

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  • Old Schools ' NO Bull$hit ' Training Discussion Thread !

    I got to thinking today that it might be good to have a thread where we discuss workout techniques that actually build muscle for the average Joe that's working out natural.
    Anyone that is jabbing who knows what into their backsides just move along because this thread ain't for them, they will get big just from picking their nose, training techniques to them is irrelevant.


    Let me get this started by stating a couple of things.

    1) You don't get big in gym; All you are trying to do in the gym is elicit an adaptive response from the body. Think of it this way, sticks don't make Bears move fast but if you poke a Bear with a stick it will move fast....the stick is just a means of facilitating a response.

    2) Once you have done enough to elicit an adaptive response any further work is wasted effort. Think of it this way, if you shoot someone dead firing more bullets into them isn't going to make them more dead !

    Once you grasp the above then you realize that 99% of what you read in the muscle building/Fitness magazines and on the internet is total BS.

    Now some of you new to muscle building will quickly say ' Well I've been following Mr. Olympia's routine doing 20 sets for chest, 15 sets for delts etc and have made great gains '..........When you first start out most people will make great gains, not because of their training but actually in spite of their training ! Those gains will soon grind to a halt and for some injuries will occur.
    Exercise is in itself damaging to the body, it needs to be done however in order to get the body to adapt, the adaptive response is hopefully larger and stronger muscles.

    If there is an interest to this topic then we can start talking about some routines and techniques.

  • #2
    Originally posted by OldSchhool View Post
    Once you grasp the above then you realize that 99% of what you read in the muscle building/Fitness magazines and on the internet is total BS.
    Does that include everything you just said?
    Yeah, my grammar sucks. Deal with it!

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah, in my N=1 experience and my workout partners' experience I agree with your opinion about stimulus/adaptive response to weightlifting (and endurance training if that's what a person is after).

      Here's the metaphors I use:
      1) If you get a flu vaccination (the stimulus) it takes 2 weeks for the body to become immune to that flu strain (adaptive response). Turns out Dr Doug McGuff uses the same metaphor.

      2) How much muscle do you think you can put on in a week's time? Go to the meat counter and buy a lean 16oz steak. That's a pound of muscle you are asking your metabolism (digestion, hormones, and genetic interactions) to build and pack onto your body over a period of time. Prior to doing this naturally (I never did steroids) I didn't think I could build 2lbs per week High-Intensity Bodybuilding: For Massive Muscles Fast: Darden Ellington: 9780399511035: Amazon.com: Books. Me and a friend did Darden's workout over a period of 6 weeks. I gained 14lbs and I think he gained 16. Both of us was shot in the ass with fatigue by the end of 2 months. We had to be really taxing our bodies' metabolism. A pound of muscle isn't a hash mark on the bathroom scale. It's a 16oz steak.

      3) It's much easier to gain muscle if you've never done much bodybulding before. But as your muscle get bigger your liver, your pancreas, sex hormones, etc. have a limited ability to adapt. IOW if you have the genetics to put on more muscle it's going to take your body's adaptive response longer to recover and add more muscle....esp since that increased muscle mass allows your body to move a higher volume of tonnage in the same amount of workout time.

      4) the body's adaptive response has its limits so you will plateau....unless you add artificial hormones into the equation.

      Personally, for health and fitness, I think a male shooting for a specific bodybuilder look would be best to ask women what they find most attractive....and vise verse. Chances are what men and women find most physically attractive will be an ideal hunter/gatherer physic. For example, I think more like you'd see women prefer the builds on Men's Health cover https://www.google.com/search?q=men%...OqrO2AXu6oCgAQ as opposed to those on Flex https://www.google.com/search?q=men%...&tbm=isch&um=1
      Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kharnath View Post
        Does that include everything you just said?
        Thanks for the valuable contribution to this thread, give yourself a pat on the back !

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm just going to leave this here for the iron addicts to freak out over: Muscles of Iron - Articles

          Coach Wade knows his stuff better than any pinhead I've run into in the gym. And he doesn't waste my time with ineffective lifts and ones that are outright dangerous either.

          While we're at it, I'd like to remind folks that body building is for Mr. Universe.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Scott F View Post
            Yeah, in my N=1 experience and my workout partners' experience I agree with your opinion about stimulus/adaptive response to weightlifting (and endurance training if that's what a person is after).

            Here's the metaphors I use:
            1) If you get a flu vaccination (the stimulus) it takes 2 weeks for the body to become immune to that flu strain (adaptive response). Turns out Dr Doug McGuff uses the same metaphor.

            2) How much muscle do you think you can put on in a week's time? Go to the meat counter and buy a lean 16oz steak. That's a pound of muscle you are asking your metabolism (digestion, hormones, and genetic interactions) to build and pack onto your body over a period of time. Prior to doing this naturally (I never did steroids) I didn't think I could build 2lbs per week High-Intensity Bodybuilding: For Massive Muscles Fast: Darden Ellington: 9780399511035: Amazon.com: Books. Me and a friend did Darden's workout over a period of 6 weeks. I gained 14lbs and I think he gained 16. Both of us was shot in the ass with fatigue by the end of 2 months. We had to be really taxing our bodies' metabolism. A pound of muscle isn't a hash mark on the bathroom scale. It's a 16oz steak.

            3) It's much easier to gain muscle if you've never done much bodybulding before. But as your muscle get bigger your liver, your pancreas, sex hormones, etc. have a limited ability to adapt. IOW if you have the genetics to put on more muscle it's going to take your body's adaptive response longer to recover and add more muscle....esp since that increased muscle mass allows your body to move a higher volume of tonnage in the same amount of workout time.

            4) the body's adaptive response has its limits so you will plateau....unless you add artificial hormones into the equation.

            Personally, for health and fitness, I think a male shooting for a specific bodybuilder look would be best to ask women what they find most attractive....and vise verse. Chances are what men and women find most physically attractive will be an ideal hunter/gatherer physic. For example, I think more like you'd see women prefer the builds on Men's Health cover https://www.google.com/search?q=men%...OqrO2AXu6oCgAQ as opposed to those on Flex https://www.google.com/search?q=men%...&tbm=isch&um=1
            Some great points well made buddy !

            You hit a very important point with regards to size expectations. If you are an average sized guy working out naturally then you will have to be realistic with your expectations.

            It is highly unlikely that you are going to strutting around with 19" arms and a 50"+ chest anytime soon, a 500lb Bench press while possible is still highly unlikely !

            So what is possible....An upper arm of 17"-18", and believe me if you are sporting guns that size when also having visible abs you are definitely going to draw glances from the general public !

            Genetically speaking a rough guide to your upper arm potential is your wrist size plus 10". So if you have 7" wrists then a 17" upper arm when you are in good shape with Abs etc is a good target to aim for.

            With good genetics and consistent HIT training the physiques of the golden oldies such as these are realistic goals and in my opinion look far better than the current monstrosities that adorn the bodybuilding stage !





            Comment


            • #7
              Even though I don't train for muscle size, I think what always works for the average and not-so-average people alike is to train for strength. You can't gain a lot of strength without muscle growth to go with it, and strength translates to performance and health too. I find many people who train exclusively for hypertrophy are strangely weak for their size.

              Edit: "Look Strong Be Strong" Article by Bill Starr
              Last edited by quikky; 09-03-2013, 08:58 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Great points hit so far...so what suggestions do any of you have? I'd like to get back into good shape so I can play more often with my boys and not have to worry about being drained.

                While I can't see the appeal (or necessity) to spend hours and hours in a gym for many the results are there...however, I've never been a believer that a person has to live their life by four phases: eat, sleep, work and train. I would like a few at home suggestions to get into everyday useful fit, as opposed to attempting to look like an Adonis without much free time to enjoy life.

                Great thread by the way..people see extensive working out as a means to an end, when they really should see fitness as a means to a better life.

                Sent from my SPH-L900 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Primal Kas View Post
                  Great points hit so far...so what suggestions do any of you have? I'd like to get back into good shape so I can play more often with my boys and not have to worry about being drained.
                  Get stronger and play with your boys more often.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Awesome that we have some genuine sensible interest, I'll post more tomorrow.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Oldschool, Amen to your post. Fully on board with that, I'm all for low frequency, high intensity training. Single set of 6-10 reps going to failure.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So we are talking about low reps, high intensity - would this be once a week / twice a week? Does it depend on other factors?

                        Also in training I read you have to think of balance - so if you do a press up, do the opposite movement as well - a row. Don't develop abs without strengthening your back, etc. Also using compound movements involving more than one joint is better, so a pullup will get you overall better biceps than a bicep curl because of the interaction between joints - it will lead to more functional strength.
                        Healthy is the new wealthy.

                        http://www.facebook.com/groups/ances...handnutrition/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          For me personally, yes low frequency, less reps. I only train once a month, that could probably be increased a little but I wouldn't want to go past twice a month.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This gives my body all the recovery and rebuilding time it needs
                            Last edited by Greenbeast; 09-04-2013, 05:37 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I do HIT lifting 2x/week with an upper/lower split.... basically this:

                              Workout 1

                              Pec Deck - 6 to 10 reps
                              With no rest do Incline Press - 2 to 4 reps
                              Pullovers - 6-10 reps
                              With no rest do Chins - 6 to 10 reps
                              Deadlift - 5 to 8 reps.

                              Rest at least 3 days.

                              Workout 2

                              Leg Extension - 8 to 15 reps
                              With no rest do Leg Press - 8 to 15 reps
                              Calf Raise - 12 to 20 reps
                              Myotic Crunch - 12-20 reps
                              With no rest do Hanging leg raise - 12-20 reps

                              Rest at least 3 days.

                              Workout 3

                              Dumbell Laterals - 6 to 10 reps
                              With no rest do Shoulder press - 6 to 10 reps
                              Chins - 6 to 10 reps
                              Tricep Pressdowns - 6 to 10 reps
                              With no reps do Dips - 3 to 5 reps

                              Rest at least 3 days.


                              Workout 4

                              Leg Extension - 8 to 15 reps
                              With no rest do Leg Press - 8 to 15 reps
                              Calf Raise - 12 to 20 reps
                              Myotic Crunch - 12-20 reps
                              With no rest do Hanging leg raise - 12-20 reps
                              Rest at least 3 day.

                              Go back to Workout 1, etc.

                              Some Points Of Importance Are:

                              Slow controlled reps (I do about a 4/4 cadence).
                              Only one set to failure, per exercise.
                              Add weight as often as possible, while keeping form perfect.
                              Have someone there to push you.
                              Keep a training journal. .

                              Then I do some sort of metabolic work (i.e. HIIT/sprints) 1x/week. I'm actually doing a bit more frequency than what would be recommended though as you can see, but I enjoy it and am seeing consistent progress.

                              Comment

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