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  • Evolution of training

    Hey Neckhammer... I've started this thread so we don't hijack the other thread.

    One of the problems I have with the concept of training to fatigue is I still having enough gas in the tank to have the strength to perform when required. I referee minor and high school football. During the season I quit lifting... saving myself for the field.

    I do agree with your, method of resistance training and working to improve the VO2 max

  • #2
    Yeah, I was actually thinking that after a couple posts. Good idea.

    I was sticking to BBS big five for almost a year before I decided, "Hey I'd like to learn to deadlift real heavy"... plus I figured it would take care of that extra metabolic work I'd been missing. So added that in. Then I decided hey I wanna do overhead barbell presses...added that. Next thing you know I was up to 2 whole very intense HIT style workouts a week. It works for bit, but I kinda have stalled for a few weeks now and I'm pretty sure taking some time off and spreading my splits out will do the trick.

    So yeah, at 1x/week I made steady progress. At 2x/week still made progress, but I haven't kept good enough record to determine if its close to the 1x/week.... plus being that 2x came after 1x you could argue that my gains were going to decrease regardless.

    So now I'm gonna try 1x/5 days, but I'm going to do the Mike Mentzer type split. Chest/Back, Legs/Abs, Shoulders/Bi/Tri, Legs/Abs.... This is a bit funny to call it a body part split cause each one of these is more like whole body. The Chest/Back days has deadlift for instance. So yeah, should be interesting.

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    • #3
      I quit lifting for about 6 months. I tried sprints rowing etc, but I just didn't get into it.

      I got back into lifting early June. (Ok... here it comes.) I've taken a modified approach combining the concepts of Barry Ross and Gray Cook.

      You only have to look at the last winter olympics and the perfromance of the Chinese women's speed skating team to really appreciate Ross' method.

      Gray Cook... well his results also speak for themself, while we know there are those who dispute his methods.

      So now I do 1 set of 1 rep each side of a Turkish get up using a dumbell. I lower the weight 5 lbs and I do 1 set of 1 rep each side. I do 5 sessions then I up the weight 5 lbs to the next dumbell. The TGU requires focus and confidence before you take it up the next notch. I've come to the conclusion it wouldn't be healthy dropping a 40 lb dumbell and having one's head in the trajectory path.


      After the TGU's I then follow Ross' method of a deadlift. 3 reps at 95% 1RM followed by 5 reps at 85% 1RM. The reps only go up to the knee, keeping the weight in the lower range of leverage. The key is not to go to failure, but keeping some in the tank.

      After that, I do 3 sets of 2 reps each set of Torture twists. The goal is to get myself up to 3 sets of 5 reps.

      I do this routine 1 to 3 times a week depending upon my schedule.

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      • #4
        Wow, so you have really increased the volume comparatively. Seems we both got interested in the dead lift, which is kind of funny. I've seen the TGU with kettlebells and with dumbbells on video.... seems that a keetlebell sort is a bit more biomechanically strong/safe. Do you prefer the DB? I know quite a bit about Gray Cook, but haven't read much on Ross. I'll check him out. I'm a stickler for my form on the dead lift though, so may not muck around with it too much.

        With the program I'm going to I will only be deadlifting 1x/20 days..... should be interesting. The full body routine from BBS was great, but I think the split will help to keep me from feeling utterly drained for 2 whole days after the lift. Like you I've got stuff to do outside the gym, and hitting every major compound lift in one session was becoming a bit too much I believe. I still go to failure plus a 5 second static.... but my cadence has dropped to more of a 4/4 or 5/5.... I move the TUL around with heavier or lighter weights once in a while too, but tend to keep it in the 45-90 second range.
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-07-2013, 05:27 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          Wow, so you have really increased the volume comparatively. Seems we both got interested in the dead lift, which is kind of funny. I've seen the TGU with kettlebells and with dumbbells on video.... seems that a keetlebell sort is a bit more biomechanically strong/safe. Do you prefer the DB?
          If you're up to it, try it with a barbell. The length works kind of like a balancing stick (does that thing have a name?) that tightrope walkers use.
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • #6
            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
            If you're up to it, try it with a barbell. The length works kind of like a balancing stick (does that thing have a name?) that tightrope walkers use.
            The gym I use isn't the best equipped but they have have the rubber coated dumbells that go up to 90 lbs. Once I hit the 90 pounder, then my plan is to back off on the weight and switch to barbells.

            I actually started with a 2 lb dumbell just to get the mechanics down before I started to add on the weight.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
              The full body routine from BBS was great, but I think the split will help to keep me from feeling utterly drained for 2 whole days after the lift. Like you I've got stuff to do outside the gym, and hitting every major compound lift in one session was becoming a bit too much I believe. I still go to failure plus a 5 second static.... but my cadence has dropped to more of a 4/4 or 5/5.... I move the TUL around with heavier or lighter weights once in a while too, but tend to keep it in the 45-90 second range.
              What intrigued me with Ross is not going to failure. One of his trainees is a 130 lb girl that dead lifts 405 lbs. She is a sprinter.
              I am really curious to see how this works out. I substitued the TGU for the bench press.

              My logic is as we age and lose mobility we lose the ability to pick ourselves up should we fall. That is why I started doing the TGU's.

              I don't feel too bad after a work out, but the torture twists have earned their name.

              Torture Twists - YouTube

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              • #8
                Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                If you're up to it, try it with a barbell. The length works kind of like a balancing stick (does that thing have a name?) that tightrope walkers use.
                haha.... now that would be some insane tension/ balance work. I've actually never even tried a turkish get up. Just watched the obligatory youtubes of it. Might give it a whirl sometime.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Vick View Post
                  What intrigued me with Ross is not going to failure. One of his trainees is a 130 lb girl that dead lifts 405 lbs. She is a sprinter.
                  I am really curious to see how this works out. I substitued the TGU for the bench press.

                  My logic is as we age and lose mobility we lose the ability to pick ourselves up should we fall. That is why I started doing the TGU's.

                  I don't feel too bad after a work out, but the torture twists have earned their name.

                  Torture Twists - YouTube

                  Makes sense to me.... and so I don't sound like a HIT zealot I do think its been shown that you don't necessarily have to train to failure to gain size or strength. I think training to failure simply ensures that you hit an intensity appropriate to stimulate the response should you not be interested in higher volume programming. Even when I was doing higher volume though I almost always pushed toward muscle failure though.....just part of my nature to push things to the enth degree. Thats what made HIT a better fit for me. As I get a few more years under my belt, something is probably gonna have to give.... volume or intensity..... I have no idea how to dial back intensity psychologically so its gonna have to be volume.

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                  • #10
                    I quote this from Dr. Carpenelli: Continue each set until it becomes difficult to maintain good form. (The level of effort required for optimal strength gains is unknown.)

                    I've always used that as my gauge for failure. Today was a perfect example. I did my TGU's, then went to the deadlift. I was at a new weight, and got my three reps. My second set is 20 lbs. lighter. I got in 2 reps but once I felt the third rep was going to be a huge struggle I quit and lowered the weight. Next session I'll be at the same weight going for 5 on the second set.

                    In the past I would have fought to get that rep completed.

                    I agree with your dialing back the volume and keeping up the intensity, as time goes on. When I first started, I kept reading when you stall, take a week off. You will come back stronger. I asked the question if that is the case why not build time off into the routine? If you go to failure you need the time off. I'm thinking not going to failure will require the time dedication of three sessions a week to get stronger.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                      As I get a few more years under my belt, something is probably gonna have to give.... volume or intensity..... I have no idea how to dial back intensity psychologically so its gonna have to be volume.
                      It is possible to do BOTH with ramping up to a few all out sets beyond failure! And Mentzer and Art Jones was wrong about that you must progress from workout to workout; it is also fully possible to dig yourself down with accumulated fatigue for weeks or months on high volume and then reduce volume and upping the intensity and then get the "long term delayed training effect"(ltdte) – that’s what I am doing in my periodization, and this principle has been known for at least thirty years now, since it was common knowledge by athletes already around the beginning of the eighties...
                      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                      - Schopenhauer

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        It is possible to do BOTH with ramping up to a few all out sets beyond failure! And Mentzer and Art Jones was wrong about that you must progress from workout to workout; it is also fully possible to dig yourself down with accumulated fatigue for weeks or months on high volume and then reduce volume and upping the intensity and then get the "long term delayed training effect"(ltdte) – that’s what I am doing in my periodization, and this principle has been known for at least thirty years now, since it was common knowledge by athletes already around the beginning of the eighties...
                        Well that is one way... I actually fibbed a bit. I tend to get a decent amount of volume in my normal day to day. It's in a much more "grease the groove" sort of way though. I'm just an always active guy. I cant sit still. I pop up to wrestle the kids or learn how to do a back flip... kip up... do some random muscle ups at the park.... do some one leg pistols or one arm pushups for fun throughout the week. I make em all a part of my day though.... It isn't like I'm aiming for a number or even counting for that matter. I'm pretty sure I'm just ADHD and this helps me maintain normality.

                        What I can say is all that stuff above is fun! I enjoy it... whereas training is fun, but its still business. I'm gonna lift that damn weight no matter what! Psyched up and its both physically and mentally draining enough that I'm not "wanting" to do it again any time real soon. I'm a glutton for punishment (have to be being a wrestler), but I've dialed it back these days. Oh, one last thing that pec rupture really did a number on me for a while psychologically. Tough to get under some real heavy weight and expect your body to produce results after it gave out so completely that one fateful time. But, I got over it.... shit happens. Figure what you did wrong and move on.
                        Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-08-2013, 04:36 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          It is possible to do BOTH with ramping up to a few all out sets beyond failure! And Mentzer and Art Jones was wrong about that you must progress from workout to workout; it is also fully possible to dig yourself down with accumulated fatigue for weeks or months on high volume and then reduce volume and upping the intensity and then get the "long term delayed training effect"(ltdte) – that’s what I am doing in my periodization, and this principle has been known for at least thirty years now, since it was common knowledge by athletes already around the beginning of the eighties...
                          You really can't say the Jones was wrong. His system wasn't perfect, but as this article points out, he made great strides in educating the fitness community. Mentzer was one of the first to discover when you stalled take time off and you will come back even stronger.

                          Total Conditioning the Arthur Jones/Nautilus Way
                          I would argue that the principle of periodization has been around since the eighties as "common knowledge". It was starting with the likes of Charlie Francis but many coaches still just beat the crap out of their athletes in the name of building endurance.


                          The best workout program is the one you enjoy. It keeps you at it. After you find that then fine tune it to improve your health and goals.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vick View Post
                            You really can't say the Jones was wrong. His system wasn't perfect, but as this article points out, he made great strides in educating the fitness community. Mentzer was one of the first to discover when you stalled take time off and you will come back even stronger.

                            Total Conditioning the Arthur Jones/Nautilus Way
                            I would argue that the principle of periodization has been around since the eighties as "common knowledge". It was starting with the likes of Charlie Francis but many coaches still just beat the crap out of their athletes in the name of building endurance.


                            The best workout program is the one you enjoy. It keeps you at it. After you find that then fine tune it to improve your health and goals.
                            Good link, and as to the bolded you are correct. Really there may be an "optimal" program for you. But if you are bored to death or just WILL NOT COMPLY then its worthless, cause you wont do it.

                            Tell ya one thing I like about the Mentzer book is that he flat out states.... gaining 5lbs of pure muscle a year would be terrific! No grandous proclamations of 30lbs/month or something silly. 5lbs is realistic and I would be happy to get that for the next couple years.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                              It is possible to do BOTH with ramping up to a few all out sets beyond failure! And Mentzer and Art Jones was wrong about that you must progress from workout to workout; it is also fully possible to dig yourself down with accumulated fatigue for weeks or months on high volume and then reduce volume and upping the intensity and then get the "long term delayed training effect"(ltdte) – that’s what I am doing in my periodization, and this principle has been known for at least thirty years now, since it was common knowledge by athletes already around the beginning of the eighties...
                              I am a big believer in periodization. I try to schedule my programming with several peak periods (each a slightly higher peak) throughout the year. Built in periods of intensity followed by periods lower intensity, rest and recovery has worked well for me. I do the same with my diet macros to coincide with my training intensity.
                              Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                              https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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