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Are deadlifts the best quad work when little hip flexion is desired

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  • #16
    Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
    I'm confused. I thought you didn't want to extend your hips. Wouldn't that make sitting less extension than deadlifting? And you said you wanted to work on your quads. Wouldn't riding a bicycle work your quads? Ride your bike up steep hills for more intensity if just pedaling around seems like not enough. It kinda sounds like you don't really want any change though from the sounds of it, not that my advice was the best or anything. You've kind of rejected all of it from everyone.
    I didn't mean to sound rude or dismissive. But my nature is to be direct and skeptical, which combined will appear rude. I would think we are all skeptics to some degree, or we wouldn't be primal. As someone who doesn't own a bike, I couldn't justify the expense on the chance that biking translates well to squat strength. And I perceive biking to be more endurance based, unless I'm on a hill steeper than anything near me. In regards to the deadlifts: It's a mystery to me why they don't hurt, but that's how it is.

    I'm getting a lot of hip mobility suggestions though. Perhaps I was too hasty to say I'm giving it up. The problem with hip mobility work is there are a hundred gazillion exercises to choose from and no article on the matter seems interested in presenting a minimalist approach. And of course, every article says it's best to do this stuff as often as possible throughout the day. Ok, but what if we can only set aside a dedicated block of time for it (x sets for x reps). It's actually similar to foam rolling (suggested done as necessary). Well, I've seen lots of people in the gym who squat much more than me and don't even know what functional fitness means. All they want is hypertrophy. They somehow are pain free, but I bet they could still benefit from hip mobility and foam rolling. It's actually really frustrating being someone who cares about the bigger picture and yet has managed to get injured twice in the mere 10 months I've been lifting.

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    • #17
      ^ This is why you should pay the $85 bucks or whatever and go visit a good chiropracter. They'll filter all the bullshit out there to what is useful for YOU.

      I was surprised when I went to one how much he knew and how he understood way better than any regular doctor. My regular doctor would have told me to stop doing so much extreme stuff and go take some pills.

      I made my appointment with the chiro myself and paid cash. No insurance company. He told me stuff about my body I never would have figured out on my own. Pointed out the problems and they were in muscles I didn't expect them to be in from the pain I had. He gave me some stretches to do. Told me what I had done wrong to hurt myself. Said I really didn't need much to get better, just do some stretches and take a few weeks to heal. I only saw him twice and I think the 2nd visit was $65. This is in expensive Santa Barbara where everything costs more.
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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      • #18
        This is From reading strength training anatomy by fredric delavier, worth getting to get a good understanding of what muscles are been worked. Not sure how these will affect your hip problems, only you can decided if they will aggravate your condition

        Doing dead lifts with a trap bar or drum bells will load the quads more than a straight bar will.

        If you still want to squat then there are a few options to protect the lumber spin and weak areas and target the quads
        Adding rubber bands to your squats will load the top portion up, allowing you go lighter at the lower part of the squat and loading the top part where your are stronger. Try squats with a heel lift this will put more emphasis on quads ( keep weights lighter with heel lifts). Could also try box squats to limit how deep you go in the squat, maybe start high with light weight see how the hips respond and build from there

        Sissy squats may be an option as an isolation exercise for the quads, also leg lifts will work those high quad/hip flexor muscle which may or may not be a good thing for your condition. Use of rubber bands could replicate leg extensions as well.

        As a side note if its a muscular problem a few sessions with a good dry needling PT will do wonders for releasing hip flexor problems, I did this last year to help with sciatica which was prioformas/ hip related

        Cheers
        "Times fun when you are having Flies" Kermit the frog

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        • #19
          Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
          ^ This is why you should pay the $85 bucks or whatever and go visit a good chiropracter. They'll filter all the bullshit out there to what is useful for YOU.

          I was surprised when I went to one how much he knew and how he understood way better than any regular doctor. My regular doctor would have told me to stop doing so much extreme stuff and go take some pills.

          I made my appointment with the chiro myself and paid cash. No insurance company. He told me stuff about my body I never would have figured out on my own. Pointed out the problems and they were in muscles I didn't expect them to be in from the pain I had. He gave me some stretches to do. Told me what I had done wrong to hurt myself. Said I really didn't need much to get better, just do some stretches and take a few weeks to heal. I only saw him twice and I think the 2nd visit was $65. This is in expensive Santa Barbara where everything costs more.
          My guy charges me even than that, but it's probably out of guilt because most of my visits are a result of his son cranking the hell out of my neck at Jiu Jitsu.
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • #20
            Yeah, my guy charged $150 for the first visit with xrays then $65 a visit ongoing, cash. And I know my friend who is a chiro does police and military discounts.

            Even if I had access to free MRI's and surgeries, I'd go see my guy first in the case of pain. For reference, a good friend with back pain went to her MD and 3 surgeries and multiple injections is still in pain enough that it limits her mobility, plus she lives on pain pills.

            http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
            Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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            • #21
              You guys certainly know how to sell the chiro. Here's how my day went. I went to Navy Medical and while waiting in the waiting room, I called a chiro. To my surprise, I was able to make an appointment same day. Navy Medical also surprised me when instead of the usual treatment, they actually referred me to xrays and physical therapy. I personally think the xrays will be useless and unrevealing, but at least they actually tried. I'm authorized 24 visits over the next 3 months for PT, but before making an appointment, I waited until the chiro. After discussing my problem as well as the previous back injury I had in December, he immediately found...well, I don't know the terminology, but something in the back hadn't fully closed. He corrected it and told me to keep away from all lower body exercises. So much for maintaining my strength, now I can't even do deadlifts. But if it works, then I'm all for it.

              One thing he said that I didn't like was that squatting all the way down to the heels (ATG) is bad for the knees. I was never breaking world records, yet there are olympic lifters who do massive amounts of weight ATG without problems. Also, full ROM squats are supposed to be natural for humans. Before I ever saw him, I had stopped doing ATG and just went somewhere between parallel and ATG, but this was because I believed it offered the same benefit, but also allowing me to lift more weight. So his criticism of ATG bothered me.

              I also don't think he understood what a squat was. The motion he used to demonstrate problem areas resembled more of a deadlift, but I mentioned deadlifts and he seemed to know about those. In regards to the squat, he even said that the shoulders are supposed to be over the hips. This would be a squat variation in which the torso is upright, such as with front or overhead squats, but a back squat I'm pretty sure the hips are supposed to shoot back away from the shoulders.

              All in all, I'm pretty pleased for $35, which was less than my copay.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by atmetal View Post
                You guys certainly know how to sell the chiro. Here's how my day went. I went to Navy Medical and while waiting in the waiting room, I called a chiro. To my surprise, I was able to make an appointment same day. Navy Medical also surprised me when instead of the usual treatment, they actually referred me to xrays and physical therapy. I personally think the xrays will be useless and unrevealing, but at least they actually tried. I'm authorized 24 visits over the next 3 months for PT, but before making an appointment, I waited until the chiro. After discussing my problem as well as the previous back injury I had in December, he immediately found...well, I don't know the terminology, but something in the back hadn't fully closed. He corrected it and told me to keep away from all lower body exercises. So much for maintaining my strength, now I can't even do deadlifts. But if it works, then I'm all for it.

                One thing he said that I didn't like was that squatting all the way down to the heels (ATG) is bad for the knees. I was never breaking world records, yet there are olympic lifters who do massive amounts of weight ATG without problems. Also, full ROM squats are supposed to be natural for humans. Before I ever saw him, I had stopped doing ATG and just went somewhere between parallel and ATG, but this was because I believed it offered the same benefit, but also allowing me to lift more weight. So his criticism of ATG bothered me.

                I also don't think he understood what a squat was. The motion he used to demonstrate problem areas resembled more of a deadlift, but I mentioned deadlifts and he seemed to know about those. In regards to the squat, he even said that the shoulders are supposed to be over the hips. This would be a squat variation in which the torso is upright, such as with front or overhead squats, but a back squat I'm pretty sure the hips are supposed to shoot back away from the shoulders.

                All in all, I'm pretty pleased for $35, which was less than my copay.
                Find a better chiro.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #23
                  Because of what he said about ATG squats, or some other reason? I don't have a basis of comparison, but he seemed sufficient. He may not have focused on my hip injury, but his explanation on how this injury could have been affected by my back injury made sense to me. And he did locate my problem spot on the back pretty quickly. I didn't give any hints, and he still found the exact spot I feel pain. I never mentioned this because it was irrelevant to this thread, but if I sit for an hour or two, I get a very slight pain in my back. I was always suspicious that it was from my injury, indicating it never fully healed. Also, I had managed to locate a bulge in my back long before this visit. Again, I was suspicious, but I had no proof that it wasn't there before the injury. After what the chiro did, I no longer can find that bulge.

                  Anyway, please explain why you don't think he's good enough. I'm genuinely interested since this is my first chiro.

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                  • #24
                    In my opinion it would be a good idea to do yoga, find a good qualified instructor and focus on hip mobility. Your hips and core need to be re-aligned, based on your description you are out of balance.
                    Last edited by canuck416; 07-24-2013, 09:15 PM.
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                    • #25
                      Anyway, please explain why you don't think he's good enough. I'm genuinely interested since this is my first chiro
                      If he is helping (I assume the goal is to get you active again), then he is good. A lot of chiros have specialties. The guy I used to see was an athlete and understood motions like squatting etc. and took the time to understand my body position during riding and his goal was to fix the pain, then make me strong enough to use my body correctly versus saying "well, don't do that". Meanwhile, my best friend is a chiro and specializes in babies and she was great at pain relief, but not at rehab.

                      If you want to return to lifting, I'd be sure to tell your chiro that is the goal. I would not be too concerned about worrying about squat form interpretations- everyone seems to have an opinion on that.

                      Did he also adjust your hips? That's one thing both of my chiros did (They have you lay on your side and they press on the hip).
                      .

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by atmetal View Post
                        Because of what he said about ATG squats, or some other reason? I don't have a basis of comparison, but he seemed sufficient. He may not have focused on my hip injury, but his explanation on how this injury could have been affected by my back injury made sense to me. And he did locate my problem spot on the back pretty quickly. I didn't give any hints, and he still found the exact spot I feel pain. I never mentioned this because it was irrelevant to this thread, but if I sit for an hour or two, I get a very slight pain in my back. I was always suspicious that it was from my injury, indicating it never fully healed. Also, I had managed to locate a bulge in my back long before this visit. Again, I was suspicious, but I had no proof that it wasn't there before the injury. After what the chiro did, I no longer can find that bulge.

                        Anyway, please explain why you don't think he's good enough. I'm genuinely interested since this is my first chiro.
                        I'd say your fine with this guy long as he can diagnose and treat your problems efficiently. Glad your getting some help.

                        Not all Chiropractors focus on athletic and strength training. I would say you found one that does not. So take his strength or athletic training advice with a grain of salt, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water IMO.

                        I always find this humorous "I didn't give any hints, and he still found the exact spot I feel pain". As if your testing him. lol. Seriously, just work WITH the fella with full disclosure of all your pain and whatnot. Sometimes pain is referred or due to compensation mechanisms. Chiro's arent vets. Communication between you and him is important. Here's to a speedy recovery!

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                        • #27
                          A professional who does not understand the mechanics of a movement (the barbell squat) is not qualified to determine whether said movement is harmful.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
                            In my opinion it would be a good idea to do yoga, find a good qualified instructor and focus on hip mobility. Your hips and core need to be re-aligned, based on your description you are out of balance.
                            While yoga wouldn't be my first choice, I know I haven't put enough importance on hips and core and will certainly change that. My core is especially weak because I always presumed heavy squats were enough for it, but obviously this is not true if I can get DOMS from only a few reps of reverse crunches with a 25 lb counterweight, as did recently happened.

                            Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                            Did he also adjust your hips? That's one thing both of my chiros did (They have you lay on your side and they press on the hip).
                            He did not adjust my hips, but he set up another appointment for Monday. I don't know if he had more to do and needed me out of there for the next appointment, or if he thinks that there will be some changes over the weekend, but whatever it is, he isn't done. Also, I'm not sure how necessary it would be to adjust my hips. Using an analogy, he explained to me that my back injury may have caused the tendons to compensate for some of the force I was under, thereby injuring the hips. So with the back adjusted, my hips may be fine after I give them time to heal. I don't know what a hip adjustment is, but it may also be irrelevant to my pain. If it is the hip flexors, yes, the word "hip" is in there, but the location of my pain is more near the spot where the leg meets the groin (not really the hips).

                            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            I always find this humorous "I didn't give any hints, and he still found the exact spot I feel pain". As if your testing him. lol. Seriously, just work WITH the fella with full disclosure of all your pain and whatnot. Sometimes pain is referred or due to compensation mechanisms. Chiro's arent vets. Communication between you and him is important. Here's to a speedy recovery!
                            What I meant by that was that he was able to find a problem so easily without me guiding him that it really is quite astounding. Also quite annoying that it was so obvious that if the Navy had bothered to take me more seriously back when I injured my back, I probably wouldn't have needed to start this thread. And for all I know, the Navy actually had a chiropractor on site I could have been referred to back in Charleston, which is the only way to get referred to one. Up here in Saratoga Springs, there's no chiro on site, so a referral is impossible. Oh, but they have an acupuncturist in site! Complete BS!

                            Originally posted by quikky View Post
                            A professional who does not understand the mechanics of a movement (the barbell squat) is not qualified to determine whether said movement is harmful.
                            That's why I didn't listen to that part. He did understand that hams and glutes are more activated and told me that there is no extra benefit to those muscles going deeper than parallel. I actually agree with this statement, but there's benefits gained from ATG outside of muscle stimulation that I'm going for. Not to mention that because I'm the only one in the gym using a full ROM, it's actually not embarrassing to lift less than 225 because the others probably have no idea what is considered a respectable ATG squat. Yea, this chiro is "old school," exact words used by one of the [positive] reviews. And I think he's been in business for 20 years or something like that.

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