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Is there room for Hypertrophy?

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  • Is there room for Hypertrophy?

    Have been following Jim Wendlers 5/3/1- which is heavy sets of the main lifts, then accessory lifts in the 10-15 range. I usually just life in the 5-8 range for my reps but just wondering what my fellow primal clan thinks.

    Do you like lifting for higher reps?

    Do you think there is good reason to include hypertrophy into your program?

  • #2
    I would love to train for hypertrophy, but never really came across a program that seemed doable and effective. German Volume Training looked like it might be effective, but the very idea of doing 100 reps of multiple exercises is daunting to me.

    Ferris suggest a completely different approach to massive mass gains, with a variation on the BBS but because those 2 or so sessions a week are done while feeding at excess every day even on the off days, I just can't see myself not gaining a lot of extra fat....

    I did a lot of bootcamps with many sets of light weights, and that actually cut muscular mass off of me like crazy, so I have a hard time believing that doing 3x12 will increase muscular size....

    So, yeah, I stick with strength lifting...
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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    • #3
      I typically do an Upper/Lower split, with a main exercise in the 5-8 rep range, then the rest of my lifts are typically anywhere from 8-12 reps.

      Leida, 3x12 will increase muscular size (any rep range will for the most part). But you still have to lift a weight that is difficult and relatively heavy. Of course dropping the intensity by 75% and doing a bunch of reps is not going to induce hypertrophy.

      So yeah, most of my lifts are in the 8-12 rep range, and I enjoy it and I'm seeing great results.
      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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      • #4
        Leida, 3x12 will increase muscular size (any rep range will for the most part). But you still have to lift a weight that is difficult and relatively heavy. Of course dropping the intensity by 75% and doing a bunch of reps is not going to induce hypertrophy.
        I haven't been able to induce hypertrophy, but I never really tried HT specific program. Both boot camps and crossfit WODs have so much cardio and so many reps (20 is pretty much a min) that my body drops muscle rather than gains. The biggest muscular increase I have seen (and that's pittance) is at 5x5 patient grind. The biggest single strength increase was on MadCow, but after maxing it absolutely everything I crashed and was not able to replicate the results again.

        I keep thinking I should research a good HT specific program and see if I can actually see that deltioid finally, damn it. (Deltoid had been my dream for years...)

        EDIT: and I am all ears to see what other people are trying!
        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Leida View Post
          I haven't been able to induce hypertrophy, but I never really tried HT specific program. Both boot camps and crossfit WODs have so much cardio and so many reps (20 is pretty much a min) that my body drops muscle rather than gains. The biggest muscular increase I have seen (and that's pittance) is at 5x5 patient grind. The biggest single strength increase was on MadCow, but after maxing it absolutely everything I crashed and was not able to replicate the results again.

          I keep thinking I should research a good HT specific program and see if I can actually see that deltioid finally, damn it. (Deltoid had been my dream for years...)

          EDIT: and I am all ears to see what other people are trying!
          Boot camps and Crossfit aren't exactly designed for hypertrophy, and most of the time when you switch from lifting very heavy to very light for high reps, you're going to compromise muscle and strength. No real surprise there.

          I wouldn't look too much into "hypertrophy specific" programs, mostly because they are all overwhelmingly high in volume. My best results have come from a basic upper/lower split (Lyle McDonald's Generic Bulking Routine is a good example).
          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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          • #6
            I like Lyle, because the Ultimate Diet 2.0 despite being a torture actually worked when nothing else did. Thanks for the reference, I think I will take a look. My latest 6 week cycle has another week on it, so I am game for trying something new.
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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            • #7
              I've been bouncing back and forth with BBS, slow 2x10s and 10x10s. If it was not for shoulder pain I would do BBS for all major lifts and something like you describe for auxiliary stuff.

              One thing I've been wondering is if there would be benefit in alternating between BBS (Mondays) and 10x10 (Thursdays) to get strength and endurance. You could even split half of the BBS on one day and the other half on the other to balance things out. I really liked BBS until my shoulders gave out (probably due to complete independent kettlebell swing form:-( ). However, I've been impressed at how much progress I've been able to make with 10x10s on incline chest presses with dumbbells.

              Has anybody tried alternating BBS/super slow and 10x10 high reps, so that you do each once a week for major movements?

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              • #8
                Do you mean 10x10 on all 5 main compound lifts (SQT, DL, BBR, BP, OHP)? 5x5 takes me at least 15 min per major lift, so at 30 min per lift (optimistically) the session will take 2.5 hrs of focused work. I dunno, does that sound productive/doable? The 10x10 schedules I saw had less lifts per session.

                EDIT: BTW< looked up Lyle's protocol, here is what I found. Looks Okay, xpt Lyle's obsession with calf raises.

                Mon: Lower

                Squat: 3-4X6-8/3' (3-4 sets of 6-8 with a 3' rest)

                SLDL or leg curl: 3-4X6-8/3'

                Leg press: 2-3X10-12/2'

                Another leg curl: 2-3X10-12/2'

                Calf raise: 3-4X6-8/3'

                Seated calf: 2-3X10-12/2'



                Tue: Upper

                Flat bench: 3-4X6-8/3'

                Row: 3-4X6-8/3'

                Incline bench or shoulder press: 2-3X10-12/2'

                Pulldown/chin: 2-3X10-12/2'

                Triceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'

                Biceps: 1-2X12-15/1.5'



                For the Thu/Fri workouts either Repeat the first two or make some slight exercise substitutions. Can do deadlift/leg press combo on Thu, switch incline/pulldown to first exercises on upper body day. A lot depends on volume tolerance, if the above is too much, go to 2-3X6-8 and 1-2X10-12



                Sets are work sets only, warm up appropriately.
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                • #9
                  All type of resistance training above 20 % of 1RM will potential build hypertrophy and strength. What really matters is that you go to failure on a few of the sets or close to failure. Above 90 % of 1 RM you will develop hypertrophy if getting enough sets and reps, time under tension...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

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                  • #10
                    Don't know if I would consider two exercises for calves an obsession. The reality is that most people neglect their calves anyways, so two exercises is probably warranted. You don't have to do them if you don't want to, it's just a basic template.
                    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                    • #11
                      I know I just find it funny because calves is pretty much the only part of my body that I like just how it is, lol. In UD 2.0 calf raises were on 4x a week. twice for 90 reps and less reps on the other two days.

                      And, heh, failure is one of the strongest themes in my workouts. I drop on my ass on squats, I wriggle from under the bench press and can't move deadlift upward another inch. If failure was a guarantee of muscular growth, I would look like a Hulk now.
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I like the HIT concept of training to failure, but just to make sure I hit that goal I do at least a 5-10 secon "push" beyond the stuff just not moving. If this ends up a static contract or the weight actually is going eccentric while I'm pushing I know I've maxed out my effort.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Leida View Post
                          Do you mean 10x10 on all 5 main compound lifts (SQT, DL, BBR, BP, OHP)? 5x5 takes me at least 15 min per major lift, so at 30 min per lift (optimistically) the session will take 2.5 hrs of focused work. I dunno, does that sound productive/doable? The 10x10 schedules I saw had less lifts per session.

                          ...
                          Good point. Right now I am only doing a 10x10 set for incline chest presses each day -- would probably want to limit two sets each day. Maybe alternate between chest press and overhead one day and pull-downs/rows the other. I only do leg presses once a week anyway.
                          Last edited by miata; 07-18-2013, 04:10 PM.

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                          • #14
                            So something like SQT/OHP one day and BP/BBR the 2nd day in 10x10 format with a DL to failure + support day? I can *heart* that. mmgh, tempting!
                            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Leida View Post
                              And, heh, failure is one of the strongest themes in my workouts. I drop on my ass on squats, I wriggle from under the bench press and can't move deadlift upward another inch. If failure was a guarantee of muscular growth, I would look like a Hulk now.
                              Failure is not a garantee for growth, but you will not grow much muscle without "scaring" your nervous system so much that it send signals to build up more muscle tissue to protect you. Going to true failure or beyond is what matters for that..
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

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