Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is there room for Hypertrophy?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Gorbag, this sounds very logical. The trick is to find the method that makes the body speak the same language the person's CNS speaks. It can be a personal failure to correctly identify the near failure state, the differences in physiology and gods alone know what (some people put on muscle by doing cardio....).

    For example Ultimate Diet 2.0 despite it drawbacks is golden for me, because I witnessed how an exact and weird protocol does exactly as advertised and on me: strips resistant fat while sparing what muscle mass I have.

    So, what I need is a protocol that puts 5 to 10 lbs of muscle mass on me (I am stuck around 103-105 lbs atm) without adding more fat (I have at least 25%). I keep working in the same framework of strength lifting (3 x a week) and not much is happening for muscle size now, so, yeah, need to try something else.

    I am tempted to try Lyle's protocol (cause it's LYLE!) first though a combo of 2x of 10x10 and 1x of failure lifts is easier to fit into my schedule. I think I will be methodical about it and try both for 6 weeks each with 1 rest week in between. If by the end of week 6 on one of those protocols I am sporting at least 2 extra shiny pounds of muscle, it's a winner!

    Some extra info on Lyle's bulking:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/97771329/L...ng-Routine-FAQ

    I think I will take his suggestion to reduce frequency and do the ULU-LUL sequence if 4x a week floors me. A bit scary that he expects 50% fat gain, but I think in my fat range I might be able to use LeanGain advantage....
    Last edited by Leida; 07-19-2013, 06:53 AM.
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

    Comment


    • #17
      My problem with high volume at relatively heavy weight is the exertion headaches come on around rep 10. That's with squats. I don't think I've ever been able to do high volume at a relatively heavy weight on anything else.
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

      Comment


      • #18
        I think I can do high reps on the empty bar on the OHP (never tried it with a Barbell). I did 6x15 sets on the bench before on UD2.0 so I know bench won't limit the 10x10.

        If necessary, I am not proud, I will go to the preloaded 30 or 35# baby bars (used them in tri-sets before). I can go with dumbbells subs too that will let do a bit lighter high reps to sub some exercises - this is HT, not strength specific programs.

        But yes, that's one thing I like more about Lyle's program - it monitors your body response. I was looking at the FAQ and he recommends stopping or keep going depending on the level of fatigue. Now, for women they always recommend more sets... do maybe fatigue is irrelevant?

        Anyway, I am going to start with Lyle after I finish my current strength cycle. About time too, I am just starting to stall about the same numbers for 5x5 sets, so tired of hitting the same ceiling.
        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
          Failure is not a garantee for growth, but you will not grow much muscle without "scaring" your nervous system so much that it send signals to build up more muscle tissue to protect you. Going to true failure or beyond is what matters for that..
          Not convinced by this argument at all. Many top coaches e.g. Jim Wendler hold that going to failure is not necessary all of the time, if ever.

          Comment


          • #20
            For HT or for strength? Wendler is most famous for strength protocols, iirc. Failure iirc was related with HT specifically. Or maybe I am dreaming in technicolor.

            Heh, sorry folks, I need another 2 h on this fast and getting chatty as hunger increases. Made a mistake of starting to swim sprints after SS swim and that woke the cursed worm & I forgot glucomannan.
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by maclrc View Post
              Not convinced by this argument at all. Many top coaches e.g. Jim Wendler hold that going to failure is not necessary all of the time, if ever.
              And I am not saying that it is necessary all of the time either! When a lifter is more advanced he will be close to true failure and can keep a rep or two in the tank, especially when working with few reps many sets and heavy weights. But most people that are not so advanced and doing higher reps should make sure to go to failure, or very close to it, from time to time, but not necessary on every set...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Leida View Post
                Now, for women they always recommend more sets... do maybe fatigue is irrelevant?
                I am starting to wonder if maybe that is true. I was so frustrated yesterday with my lack of progress on overhead press (literally been at this level for months) that I decided I would do 7 reps of 2. Basically just keep doing sets of 2 until I got to 15 (well, 14, close enough.) Perhaps next time I will just do sets of 2 until I can only do 1 even if that takes an hour. Something's gotta move me forward.

                This was an interesting read I found yesterday: Do women need to train differently than men? | Real Strength
                One more offshoot here to keep in mind is that since women tend to have a fiber blend that is more fatigue-resistant, they shouldn’t rely as much on rep max calculators. I’ve seen a girl squat 155×15 with a 1rm of 185. 155×15 would project a 1rm of 235-255ish. If a man can squat 185, he’s only going to get 6 or 7 reps with 155.
                He also says women should train heavier than a man and also do more volume. I'm not sure how you accomplish that. Is there a good program for women that accomplishes this?
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes, Wendler is primarily a strength coach, but variations of his program (5/3/1), notably BBB (big but boring), do contain a fair amount of volume in order to aid HT. Wendler has stated, and this fits with paleo/primal in general, that there is no point in being bit for the sake of it i.e. size without proportionate strength is pointless.

                  It is widely accepted that regularly going to failure has a negative impact on strength gains and also increases the risk of injury. That said, most bodybuilders train to failure quite often as it does seem to produce the most HT.

                  Whilst there is nothing wrong with going to failure per se, Gorbag's statement that it is necessary for growth is simply not true. Damaging muscle tissue and subsequent repair and growth will occur without going to failure (assuming correct rest and nutrition, etc.).

                  If you are going to go to failure, and it can be a useful tool as it allows more work to get done, be careful which exercises you utilize it with. Pull-ups, tricep/bicep curls, etc. won't really do much harm if taken to failure, whilst big compound lifts e.g. squat, deadlifts, etc. could potentially lead to injury and will almost certainly negatively effect strength gains.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                    And I am not saying that it is necessary all of the time either! When a lifter is more advanced he will be close to true failure and can keep a rep or two in the tank, especially when working with few reps many sets and heavy weights. But most people that are not so advanced and doing higher reps should make sure to go to failure, or very close to it, from time to time, but not necessary on every set...
                    I just read this after writing my previous post and whilst I agree on many of the points made, we will have to agree to disagree that failure is EVER necessary, which is what you imply. Again, there is nothing wrong with using failure as a tool, but it is no magic weapon and hypertrophy is more than possible without ever using it.
                    Last edited by maclrc; 07-19-2013, 08:15 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I am starting to wonder if maybe that is true. I was so frustrated yesterday with my lack of progress on overhead press (literally been at this level for months) that I decided I would do 7 reps of 2. Basically just keep doing sets of 2 until I got to 15 (well, 14, close enough.) Perhaps next time I will just do sets of 2 until I can only do 1 even if that takes an hour. Something's gotta move me forward.
                      I was doing 7 sets of 3's for a while on BP because I was so tired of missing reps.

                      He also says women should train heavier than a man and also do more volume. I'm not sure how you accomplish that. Is there a good program for women that accomplishes this?
                      What I have seen said based on the same data is not that women should try to lift more than men, our % lifted to body weight is LOWER, but that we can put in more reps near max than men. Hence the suggestion for more sets for women to induce the similar response in muscle. Anecdotaly, I was putting on more muscle while bulking up in 5x5 regimen, AND have had the highest lifts in the Madcow regimen. Both training regimens employed 5x5 sets. Less sets (3x5, Wendler and 1 set of 7 to failure) did not produce notable results for me. So, I think for me at least the woman axiom works - I need more sets of relatively heavy reps to induce response (but not too many reps per set, or I can't lift sufficient weight - so no responce to Cross-fitting 50 reps and such). Hence, I was thinking to try the mother of all volume training, the GVT 10x10. I have never seen any women to describe her experience with 10x10.
                      Last edited by Leida; 07-19-2013, 08:20 AM.
                      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by maclrc View Post
                        I just read this after writing my previous post and whilst I agree on many of the points made, we will have to agree to disagree that failure is EVER necessary, which is what you imply. Again, there is nothing wrong with using failure as a tool, but it is no magic weapon and hypertrophy is more than possible without ever using it.
                        Well, failure can be defined in different ways, what is important is to get a response for supercompensation, and not only tear down muscle tissue and replace it with new contractible proteins. To get a response for supercompensation you need to dig into the nervous system harder on a few sets. Muscle growth is not a linear process usually but happens in "bursts" and studies has shown that a high rep set with relative low weight is just as effective for hyperthrophy if taken to failure or close to failure, as low reps and high load. Failure seem to be a more important parameter than load on the bar...
                        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                        - Schopenhauer

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by maclrc View Post
                          I just read this after writing my previous post and whilst I agree on many of the points made, we will have to agree to disagree that failure is EVER necessary, which is what you imply. Again, there is nothing wrong with using failure as a tool, but it is no magic weapon and hypertrophy is more than possible without ever using it.
                          Going to failure may not be necessary, but intensity is. At least based on the very scant evidence we have in this area. Going to failure simply assures you that you have hit the intensity threshold that is most likely to be sufficient to cause adaptive changes. You can obviously reach said threshold through volume training, effectively your just taking a longer time to mimic the same intensity IMO. Programming usually utilizes a bit of each or a period of one then the other. I like HIT better because I don't have hours on end to just hang round the gym. So I use more weight and push em till they won't move no more. That tells my body to get stronger so that next time we CAN move the weight.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Leida View Post
                            I was doing 7 sets of 3's for a while on BP because I was so tired of missing reps.



                            What I have seen said based on the same data is not that women should try to lift more than men, our % lifted to body weight is LOWER, but that we can put in more reps near max than men. Hence the suggestion for more sets for women to induce the similar response in muscle. Anecdotaly, I was putting on more muscle while bulking up in 5x5 regimen, AND have had the highest lifts in the Madcow regimen. Both training regimens employed 5x5 sets. Less sets (3x5, Wendler and 1 set of 7 to failure) did not produce notable results for me. So, I think for me at least the woman axiom works - I need more sets of relatively heavy reps to induce response (but not too many reps per set, or I can't lift sufficient weight - so no responce to Cross-fitting 50 reps and such). Hence, I was thinking to try the mother of all volume training, the GVT 10x10. I have never seen any women to describe her experience with 10x10.
                            Yeah, that makes sense. I think he was saying what you said. That we can put in more reps near the max than men. Our 10 rep max doesn't calculate out to our 1 rep max using typical calculators. It's much closer to the 1 rep max than it is for a man.
                            Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              So, I have 2 weeks left on my current progressive strength schedule (it was an 8 weeks plan), but I am tempted to try Lyle's workouts starting this week. Of course already made a spreadsheet. I tell ya, 4 high carb/low fat days is a HUGE temptation. On the other hand, i have no clue how long Lyle's workout would take, and that is worrysome. I have till tomorrow to decide what I wanna do.
                              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Okay, I started Lyle's regimen yesterday with a LB split. I think my weights were too cautious because I do not feel much. On the other hand, the last reps were hard - but that might have been psychological adjustment to 'wait, that was 5, we are not finished? I also took Jack3D beforehand to ease in, so that may have skewed the intensity perception. I did 8 min warm up on rower and some 22 min afterwards of elliptical cardio as recommended. Then i did gardening with loading and unloading 19 bags of compost/mulch. I was neither hungry nor winded by the end of the day.

                                Practically, with 4 sets of 8, and 2" instead of 3" rests, and leaving out the heavy calf raise I was able to complete the lifting in ~ 1 hr.

                                Going to do upper body split today. We'll see how that goes.
                                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X