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lower volume (2x5) for strength gains (because 5x5 makes me eat too much!)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Greenbeast View Post
    i partially see where you are coming from, with the warmup safety.

    I'm not saying we should follow mark's suggestion's (or anyone else's) like sheep, i think what we are trying to do, some more than others, is to mimic the life grok might have lead.
    I am pointing out that grok would not have likely needed to stress his body to the limit several times a week. He adapted to the life he lead and we, as a species, have his genetics.
    But we know scientifically now, what can prompt an adaptive response in the body. So we can go to failure once or twice a month and prompt the body to develop muscles that will lift that weight. If one wishes they can faff about in the gym several times a week but then i see that as more like a hobby, the same way i can read for hours a week and someone else would say that's a waste of time.
    I think the ideal thing to do is to approach fitness training in order to meet your own specific goals. I would agree that most people want to maximize their time spent in the gym. that's a no brainer. if you are happy with yourself based upon the training that you do, then that's it. end of discussion. but your style of training isn't the ultimate style of training, it isn't the best approach for pure strength, and it isn't the best style of training for pure hypertrophy. its the best for you and your goals. the guy who spends 4 hours a day in the gym who is an aspiring bodybuilder isn't "faffing" off in the gym. he is working to meet his goals. your style of training wouldn't be suited for that. the guy who wants to get as strong as he possibly can to compete in a powerlifting meet would be short changing himself training the way you do it. both of those guys might look at your program and think you weren't serious about lifting and that you were "faffing" off in the gym. if people want a little bit of hypertrophy a little bit of strength, and a lot of metcon, they might join a crossfit gym. that's what would fit their goals.

    working out like a caveman may have is a purely fictional concept. yeah, a caveman didn't workout with barbells. obviously. but I think people underestimate the stress that prehistoric life actually consisted of. it wasn't loafing around, sprint once a week, move a rock here and there. it was hardcore, fight for your life and every morsel of food you eat. going to failure was a part of every waking minute. not having enough to eat was a part of every waking minute. grok physically stressed his body to the limit 24/7.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
      a competitive bodybuilder will more than likely need to train with a high volume of reps and sets, because time and time again, it has been proven to produce maximum hypertrophy.
      Is that just for competitive bodybuilders (i.e., juiceheads), or does high sets/reps produce the most hypertrophy for anyone? The only reason I'm doing a strength routine is because these days everyone says that training for strength is the best way to induce hypertrophy.
      "Don't go in there, General, it's a trap! That's a grain chamber. It makes people like you into people like me."

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      • #33
        Originally posted by PrimalHunter View Post
        Is that just for competitive bodybuilders (i.e., juiceheads), or does high sets/reps produce the most hypertrophy for anyone? The only reason I'm doing a strength routine is because these days everyone says that training for strength is the best way to induce hypertrophy.
        Not all bbs are juiceheads. There is a huge natural bb scene, it's just not as highly publicized or glamorized. Plus, there are plenty of people out there that just want to grow muscle and don't care about peak strength.

        Typically, this puts you in an 8-12 rep range for most exercises, and eventually utilizes advanced techniques like pyramids, reverse pyramids, drop sets, supersets, etc...

        Training for strength is the best way to get strong. It is also a good way to induce hypertrophy, but ultimately not the best way.
        Programs like what Joe Defranco's westside for skinny bastards combine the best of both worlds. Stuff like that is pretty time consuming and requires you to eat like a grizzly bear in order to recover

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        • #34
          Frankly most use the volume method for hypertrophy.

          There are a few that use HIT.

          I like HIT philosophy and work with that right now. I've done 5 and 6 day a week bodybuilding splits. Just totally not worth it for my goals these days.

          I really don't think it matters until you have eeked out the majority of your genetic potential. Up to then either method will work IMO.... then actually alternating, doing micro and macro cycles, and all that other shit probably is where you have to go.
          Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-03-2013, 06:58 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            Frankly most use the volume method for hypertrophy.

            There are a few that use HIT.

            I like HIT philosophy and work with that right now. I've done 5 and 6 day a week bodybuilding splits. Just totally not worth it for my goals these days.

            I really don't think it matters until you have eeked out the majority of your genetic potential. Up to then either method will work IMO.... then actually alternating, doing micro and macro cycles, and all that other shit probably is where you have to go.
            I think this is true, but I also think you have to get strong first in order to get results. The 8-15 rep hypertrophy range is worthless if you can't rep a weight 8-15 times that's heavy enough to induce a hypertrophy adaptation. For someone who's not quite strong to begin with, bodybuilding type workouts are more a waste of time than anything. Once you're squatting 2x bodyweight, then choose if you want to mainly pursue further strength gains or mainly hypertrophy.

            HIT is great if you want to get the absolute most "bang for your buck." The return may diminish for any additional work thereafter, but it's still significant up to a couple workouts of 3 x 5 a week for most people who aren't already damn strong. This is where individual goals have to dictate appropriate programming choices.
            The Champagne of Beards

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            • #36
              I also find commanding my biceps to grow induces some metaphysical muscular response that generates extra muscular hypertrophy. Bro.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Lockstock View Post
                I also find commanding my biceps to grow induces some metaphysical muscular response that generates extra muscular hypertrophy. Bro.
                Works better if you curse at them. A lot.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  Works better if you curse at them. A lot.

                  To much and will hurt it's feelings and it shall shrink

                  It's happened more then once in awkward places. Wait, what?

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                  • #39
                    reading this has given me plenty of food for thought, and a chance to reflect on my goals.

                    I think having gained quite a bit of mass (before i started LHT I was 71kg, now 78kg, bodyfat is about the same) and given that I am sick of eating like a grizzly and/or not sleeping well (it seems the bad sleep might also be a sign I'm a little overtrained, as is the need for huge amounts of food for recovery) the time is probably right for a reassessment of my training schedule.

                    Dropping volume feels right, as I think I more want reconstitution than mass gain at this point - I might even experiment with just one work set. And maybe drop to LHT 2x a week to add HIIT or sprints, something I was thinking I'll do eventually anyway.

                    And I should perhaps reflect that I've been working too hard towards my goal of 2xbw deadlift, I should remember that I'll get there eventually with consistent training, and that it's health and vitality I am training for, not performance - for a while the two go together, but when they diverge I'd rather choose health.

                    finally,Greenbeast - can you give any links to the program you are on (or even a name for it?). It sounds unconventional and I can follow your grok-logic so I'd like to learn a little more (tho for now I'm a bit skeptical, and I definitely won't be dropping my warm-up sets any time soon). Thanks!
                    Me: 41, 5'11", primal since Dec 2011, 73kg, 15%BF but looking to drop to 10%ish
                    Exercise: barbells, bodyweight, sprints, surfing
                    Food: primal but a little higher carb - white rice, bananas
                    Sleep: has been problematic for years but recently good - Sleep Restriction Therapy is really working for me

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                    • #40
                      I will talk to my trainer, i don't know if there's a name for it specifically but i've been wanting to read up on his sources for a while anyway. Up till now the only thing that mattered was that it works and takes no time at all, i'm increasing my lifts at a pretty reasonable rate and hopefully will be at maintenance within a few months (another handful of sessions) then i can get back to really thinking about body fat drops again (it's going down still just slower than before)

                      My half tongue-in-cheek response to not on the rug about warm-ups is that my first n reps are the warm up for the final rep

                      which is not all that crazy when you consider that the first few reps are 'easy' and then the later few are 'hard', so is that much different from lifting lighter weights first?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                        Works better if you curse at them. A lot.
                        You need to be in the gym on birthdays, graduations, anniversaries, your mama's birthday...

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Greenbeast View Post
                          I will talk to my trainer, i don't know if there's a name for it specifically but i've been wanting to read up on his sources for a while anyway. Up till now the only thing that mattered was that it works and takes no time at all, i'm increasing my lifts at a pretty reasonable rate and hopefully will be at maintenance within a few months (another handful of sessions) then i can get back to really thinking about body fat drops again (it's going down still just slower than before)

                          My half tongue-in-cheek response to not on the rug about warm-ups is that my first n reps are the warm up for the final rep

                          which is not all that crazy when you consider that the first few reps are 'easy' and then the later few are 'hard', so is that much different from lifting lighter weights first?
                          I think the no warmup philosophy may be/have been a Pavel Tsatsouline thing. Not sure if he still advocates it. If it was from Pavel T., it's a case of a guy who is right about a lot of things being wrong about 1 particular thing.

                          You will get injured.

                          You could lift more if you warmed up first.

                          The lack of accumulated fatigue on your first reps is not at all the same as doing several sets at lower intensity and increasing the intensity through your work set(s).

                          Warm muscles are able to produce more force, more safely than cold muscles.

                          Your trainer is wrong.

                          Static stretching, on the other hand, should probably not be done before lifting heavy weights.

                          Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                          You need to be in the gym on birthdays, graduations, anniversaries, your mama's birthday...
                          Well, I am planning to squat today, on July 4th, instead of eating apple pie and hot dogs and potato chips. I promise I'll curse at my quads and posterior chain (might need a mirror to get the full effect) and see if it helps.
                          The Champagne of Beards

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                          • #43
                            In Pennsylvanian high school wrestling archives there was a heavyweight (3 time state champ) that was quite outspoken about NOT warming up or stretching prior to a mach based on his philosophy. Number 20 on the list InterMat Wrestling - 20 best high school wrestlers over the past 20 years

                            The kid would get up off the bench completely cold and get on with it. His idea was to treat wrestling as a martial art, so he would train in a matter that conformed to a street fight breaking out. I guess you could call this greasing the groove of going from cold to full tilt in a matter of seconds.

                            Personally I wouldn't recommend it. High school kids are dumb, even if they are gifted wrestlers

                            PS: I grew up and was on the mat at approximately the same time as WAY too many of these elite lightweight wrestlers from PA. Tough guys to wrestle, but good times none the less.
                            Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-04-2013, 07:17 AM.

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                            • #44
                              thanks greenbeast I appreciate anything you come up with. My interest is in the idea that less is more - having clearly been working out too much, I am now wondering what a sensible minimum might be - once a month sounds extreme, but twice or even once a week sounds interesting, and I try to be openminded so I'm looking forward to seeing the rationale for your program.

                              I have to say tho I agree with richmahogany, my body feels better and more capable if I warm up gradually (for anything) - I won't be dropping my warm-up sets anytime soon.

                              that said, here's a thought: as a kid, and a teenager, and probably until my early twenties, I needed no warm up at all - i wonder, specifically at a biological level, what changed, and if those changes are inevitable.
                              Last edited by archaeologyboy; 07-05-2013, 07:14 PM.
                              Me: 41, 5'11", primal since Dec 2011, 73kg, 15%BF but looking to drop to 10%ish
                              Exercise: barbells, bodyweight, sprints, surfing
                              Food: primal but a little higher carb - white rice, bananas
                              Sleep: has been problematic for years but recently good - Sleep Restriction Therapy is really working for me

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'm 33, and I definitely need more warmup than I did before, and I notice a big difference in my lifts when I don't warm up enough.

                                I've been insanely busy lately, and dropped my workouts to a bunch of semi-random bodyweight stuff throughout the week, and deadlifts once a week. I'm not gaining mass really, but I am still gaining strength. Body By Science is a protocol based on only working out once every 7-10 days.

                                If I had the time right now, I'd be doing stronglifts twice a week, as I can't recover from three in a week. I just have other things to do that are more important at the moment.

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