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  • #16
    Originally posted by boomingno View Post
    I agree with Rich. There is a difference between pain and soreness; if you wait until you're not sore to do a particular lift again, you're probably going to always be sore after you do that lift. Doing some reps at a lighter weight should help... unless you actually are INJURED, in which case obviously it is a bad idea. Learning the difference between the two is something most serious lifters are going to have to do, IMO.
    I don't know where you get this from. It is absolutely untrue. But if you believe it to be true, I'm sure you wouldn't do it any other way.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      Soreness is uncomfortable (from mildly to severly), but it's not the same as pain, in my book. Pushing through true pain (e.g. injury) is usually a bad idea (not always true for muscle belly injuries), but pushing through soreness actually tends to alleviate soreness.
      Then on the other hand there were times when working through muscle soreness resulted in a torn muscle. I prefer to avoid such things. It's not always possible to adjust a workout to a certain percent of load if it's not using graduated weights.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        Then on the other hand there were times when working through muscle soreness resulted in a torn muscle.
        For you? Because again, this has not been observed in the general population.

        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        I prefer to avoid such things.
        Can you provide even so much as a proposed mechanism by which sore muscles magically tear? Millions of people work out sore every day without tearing muscles. This is not a valid concern.

        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        It's not always possible to adjust a workout to a certain percent of load if it's not using graduated weights.
        That's certainly a valid criticism of non-barbell based workout regimens, but we've done this dance many, many times recently.
        The Champagne of Beards

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        • #19
          Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
          I don't know where you get this from. It is absolutely untrue. But if you believe it to be true, I'm sure you wouldn't do it any other way.
          Well it is certainly not absolutely untrue, because that is pretty much my experience. Especially with squatting. Regular workouts, even with increasing weight, resulted in less soreness overall. I must be some sort of mutant...

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
            For you? Because again, this has not been observed in the general population.
            Yep. Happened to me.

            Can you provide even so much as a proposed mechanism by which sore muscles magically tear? Millions of people work out sore every day without tearing muscles. This is not a valid concern.
            A weakened area is not given time to heal before the next load. How hard is that to imagine?

            That's certainly a valid criticism of non-barbell based workout regimens, but we've done this dance many, many times recently.
            Really? So the cure was giving up sports?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by boomingno View Post
              Well it is certainly not absolutely untrue, because that is pretty much my experience. Especially with squatting. Regular workouts, even with increasing weight, resulted in less soreness overall. I must be some sort of mutant...
              Oh, really? So you have allowed yourself not to work out through the pain and every time, every singble time for the rest of your life, you experienced increasing pain? Why am I thinking this situation is not real?

              I know I'm exaggerating, but still. If you like to work through pain, you'll work through pain. The pain is there for a reason. Arbitrary workout schedule be damned.
              Last edited by eKatherine; 06-21-2013, 10:30 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                Yep. Happened to me.
                So you got a torn muscle when being sore and you made the incorrect fallacy that soreness caused it! Correlation is not causation...
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                  Yep. Happened to me.
                  I'm not going to ask to see the MRI or anything, but please stop pretending this is common. It's not. Your n=1 doesn't apply to everyone.

                  Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                  A weakened area is not given time to heal before the next load. How hard is that to imagine?
                  It's hard to imagine what you're even talking about. A weakened area? You're talking about a muscle being more prone to tearing because it feels sore. Despite the fact that you can provide no data supporting this very contrary-to-everyone-else's-experience claim, you're being overtly vague and intentionally obtuse when it comes to even proposing a mechanism whereby this tearing of muscle tissue is caused by working out while sore.

                  Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                  Really? So the cure was giving up sports?
                  The cure for inadequate programming is better programming. I'm not sure what you're getting at/asking here.
                  The Champagne of Beards

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                  • #24
                    I've recently found that a few diluted shots of ACV post workout really helps with DOMS. It almost works too well, as in I gave myself a righteous beating at Crossfit this week, feeling too strong and invincible with my miracle vinegar shots.
                    “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” Rumi

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                    • #25
                      Ok, so apparently there is cat fighting on here now. Makes for more entertainment for me
                      Here are my 2c.

                      1) We are not comparing apples to apples here....there is soreness, NORMAL soreness, and then there is delayed-onset muscle soreness (DOMS). It is entirely possible and a good idea to push through normal soreness. This occurs the day after lifting, maybe the next day after that, and then you're fine. DOMS is when you workout, are just mildly sore the next day, but then you get REALLY sore on days 2,3,4 post-workout.

                      Normal soreness is caused by regular training, causing mild microtears (all lifting does this) which, especially if highly trained, your body deals with pretty easily...DOMS is when you hit them extremely hard and cause much more tearing than the muscle is used to. This caused a DELAYED onset of pretty severe inflammation, which takes a few days to get going all the way. It is a "PAMP reaction" biochemically, similar to when you get a bruise....you usually notice that a contusion will take a few days to get a real "strawberry" appearance. It is a similar (not identical) process with DOMS.

                      I.E. => A Smolov squat progression (squatting heavy 4 days a week) on a really highly trained person, using supplements and years of work = sustained normal soreness you can push through (hopefully), will add a lot of # to your max by the end.
                      => Smolov on a NORMAL person = one good workout, 1 day of rest (not enough for them), another heavy squat day, then DOMS hits and shows over. DOMS is why a couch potato can't complete a Smolov or a Wendler or a competitve triathletes swim progression, not that they just get a little sore. They would be a mess, a non-functional mess.

                      2) The threshold for producing DOMS is very different for different people...in an untrained person, even very mild workouts can trigger the acute inflammatory response of it. It is also through doing novel movements to a muscle. In a highly trained person though, hitting your muscles hard enough to produce DOMS can be very hard to do, and I have always avoided it. It means no training for a few days and it sucks. This is why when I played collegiate football, the conditioning coaches were sure never to load too much volume, and would make sure you weren't trying to make huge leaps in your lifts at once....yes, you may do it, but you will likely get DOMS that makes you suck in practice for awhile.

                      3) The inflammation of DOMS has, by its definition, function loss. In other words, you are weak. If you are capable of doing 80% of your max, you don't have it. You are just sore. Man/woman up

                      4) You tear a muscle when you put too much load on a muscle in which you did not build the connective tissue in conjunction with it. Tendon takes much longer to build than muscle, which is again why it's dumb to try to add 15% to your max in a month. Working a sore muscle does not cause it (it will cause a lot of microtearing and be painful as shit, but it won't detach a muscle). You have to work slow and get your muscles used to heavy loads to avoid tears.

                      5) The OP wrote bc, at least judging from her avatar pic, she is pretty highly trained and was shocked to see that a case of DOMS has ambushed her. I haven't had it in 4-5 months, since I decided it would be fun to try to do a tough mudder with a weight vest on. It was VERY stupid, and I was a mess for 5 days or so after.

                      In short, if you CAN work through it, it ain't DOMS. If you can't, do the Mg and epsoms, ice, the works and sideline it for awhile.
                      Last edited by TheyCallMeLazarus; 06-21-2013, 11:15 AM.
                      "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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                      • #26
                        Gorbag and RichMahogany agreeing in a thread? MADNESS. eKatherine what have you done...

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by boomingno View Post
                          Gorbag and RichMahogany agreeing in a thread? MADNESS. eKatherine what have you done...

                          Good signs you're definitely wrong:

                          Gorbag and I agree that you're wrong.
                          The Champagne of Beards

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                          • #28
                            If I get sore after exercise it seem to come around 48 hours after, usually due to overdoing the eccentric part of heavy weight lifting, or some unusual exercise, but I have also got it from long distance running or even hiking with a heavy backpack. I can tell for sure that in periods with less training that those DOMS will hit me much harder, then when I train more frequently! And warming up helps, so unless soreness makes a trainee neglect form because of pain, a lighter workout can be carried out without any danger at all.

                            If people could just remember to get water, fast acting carbs (glucose!), sodium and B-complex intra workout and immediately post workout, they will feel much less sore and recover much better! But usually people forget to do the most important stuff and obsess about some rather irrelevant footnotes instead…


                            Delayed onset muscle soreness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                            - Schopenhauer

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                              The cure for inadequate programming is better programming. I'm not sure what you're getting at/asking here.
                              Since you've no idea what sort of exercise I was doing and the sort of effort I was putting out, that's something you can't say without making wild guesses. Your assumption that I did that lifting barbells is incorrect.

                              I know from my history of injury that continuing to push myself through soreness can result in chronic problems that can take months to heal. Taking an extra day or two to recover from regular soreness can mean the difference between coming back stronger than ever and having to take an extended break.

                              My goal is to not have to take months or years off from exercise, as I have had to do in the past. If that bothers anyone here, it's not my problem.

                              It works for me to listen to my body. I'll keep doing that, and I'll keep recommending to others that it's safe to do so.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                                Since you've no idea what sort of exercise I was doing and the sort of effort I was putting out, that's something you can't say without making wild guesses. Your assumption that I did that lifting barbells is incorrect.

                                I know from my history of injury that continuing to push myself through soreness can result in chronic problems that can take months to heal. Taking an extra day or two to recover from regular soreness can mean the difference between coming back stronger than ever and having to take an extended break.

                                My goal is to not have to take months or years off from exercise, as I have had to do in the past. If that bothers anyone here, it's not my problem.

                                It works for me to listen to my body. I'll keep doing that, and I'll keep recommending to others that it's safe to do so.
                                And I'll keep pointing out that you're the only precious snowflake this applies to, until some type of evidence surfaces to contradict that statement. Good talk, Snowflake.
                                The Champagne of Beards

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