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  • Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
    Consider this perfectly plausible scenario:
    X is super fit. Loves to push herself. Triathlete. blah blah. X falls 10 ft during one of her rock climbing adventures and broke her back.
    A fat slob who never even jogged in her life could think, "why do I have to foot the bill for these nut-cases?".
    It's called risk. A fit active person has a much lower chance of needing medical care than a fat slob who never jogged in his life. How much money do we spend spend treating lazy fat asses vs fit people? Someone fit and healthy needing major medical care is bad luck, i.e. the perfect reason for insurance, someone who is 300lb with a diet of McD's and Pepsi needing major medical care is cause and effect.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by quikky View Post
      It's called risk.
      Now we are into the realm of probabilities. We need concrete numbers (rather than handwaving with examples of 300lb people with a diet of McDs and coke) to proceed. And a mathematician would argue that frequency estimation from a sample involves making an assumption about the probability distribution of the underlying phenomenon. It gets trickier.

      Therefore, I remain content to simply point out plausible alternatives to "absolutely damning" statements. It is an entertaining exercise.
      Few but ripe.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by quikky View Post
        Out of curiosity, where do you people live that you get public ridicule for having extra fluff? I've never seen or heard anyone making fun of someone in public about their weight.
        The place known as Asia!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
          Now we are into the realm of probabilities. We need concrete numbers (rather than handwaving with examples of 300lb people with a diet of McDs and coke) to proceed. And a mathematician would argue that frequency estimation from a sample involves making an assumption about the probability distribution of the underlying phenomenon. It gets trickier.

          Therefore, I remain content to simply point out plausible alternatives to "absolutely damning" statements. It is an entertaining exercise.
          You're saying a lot without really saying anything.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
            The place known as Asia!
            Seriously? I've never been to Asia, is that really a normal occurrence there, or at least in South Korea (where you are it seems)?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by quikky View Post
              You're saying a lot without really saying anything.
              Pick up a statistical inference textbook.And then read about tail risk probabilities.
              And then engage in intelligent discussion.

              I know the underlying problem is a bit too difficult to discuss scientifically. So i would rather have a bit of fun.
              Few but ripe.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by quikky View Post
                Seriously? I've never been to Asia, is that really a normal occurrence there?
                Brutally so, all over Asia.

                First, this is a difficult concept to explain to people who haven't lived in Asia. Inevitably people end up applying Western values with a confident "oh that must be sooo horrible, those poooor savages need to become enlightened, like us".

                In my observation however, it works. People are healthier, and results are results.

                Korea - The ideal female weight is 99-105lb. If you are 120lb you are cubby. If you 130lb you are officially fat! Obese people don't really exist in Seoul. No excuses for "big boned" or height are accepted. The rule is the rule and you are not allowed to consider yourself an exception.

                This rule is socially enforced. Mothers tell their daughters their husband will leave if they get fat (happened to my wife). You won't get hired if you are fat, except by an American company. Last month the only fat girl in the gym was doing Pilates and a group of skinning girls walked by and pointed with their hand to mouth "oh my", right to her face thru the glass! People will tell you to your face "you are fat", including complete strangers on the street or subway. It happens.

                The result? There really aren't obese people in Seoul. It's the healthiest major city in the developed world, that's I've been, and I've been to a lot. The social disgrace of being visibly unhealthy is just too great.

                China - the WSJ wrote a fun article many years ago:

                "The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginable—even legally actionable—to Westerners. Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, "Hey fatty—lose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image"

                http://m.asia.wsj.com/articles/a/SB1...?mg=reno64-wsj

                As an American living in Asia I've seen both sides, the Asian way is fucking brutal yes, a few people will suicide yes, but it's realistic and it works.

                Occasionally I post taunting the "fat acceptance" movement in the West; my experience in Asia is why. I think fat acceptance directly promotes getting fatter.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                  The place known as Asia!
                  Same here to an extent. There's a high % of Asian cultures among the expat population, and it just doesn't seem to be deemed as rude to comment on people's appearances - the best example I can think of being an enquiry from a colleague from the Philippines as to what I was doing to make my stomach flatter, shortly followed by a comment that it was good I'd done so because "you were very fat before." Not incorrect, but not usually something that I'd expect a work colleague to be so direct about!

                  We also have an office in Hong Kong, and I don't even bother going into the clothes shops when I'm over there as from past experience I will be greeted either with the statement that they have NOTHING which will fit me, or asked very loudly if I would like an EXTRA LARGE. I'm currently a UK 10-12 (US6 -8). It's just a different culture with different norms.
                  Last edited by katiepotato; 06-15-2013, 03:10 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
                    Now we are into the realm of probabilities. We need concrete numbers (rather than handwaving with examples of 300lb people with a diet of McDs and coke) to proceed. And a mathematician would argue that frequency estimation from a sample involves making an assumption about the probability distribution of the underlying phenomenon. It gets trickier.

                    Therefore, I remain content to simply point out plausible alternatives to "absolutely damning" statements. It is an entertaining exercise.
                    . It isn't. For every 1 fit and active person in america who gets a sports injury, I would imagine there are 50,000 slobs out there. What's the obesity rate in America now? 35%. And what % of healthy active americans are falling off of rock walls? A fraction of a percent

                    Comment


                    • I'm lazy... Maybe tomorrow...

                      Comment


                      • I think the problem is that at what point to you change from fat slob jacking up insurance into acceptable human that is healthy? Realize that for some people especially women that line may have them not looking great in a bikini and that the next step, looking good in that bikini might not be a net positive for health.

                        That pic that annoyed me- the woman is not 300 lbs. I'm gonna put her in the 160-180 weight class. She probably wears a 10/12. So, she is representative of a good chunk of women. I'm going to bet we have similar body fat %'s, her fat is in her stomach area, mine is on my limbs. Now, I keep a healthy lifestyle. I've gone over it here a couple of times. I used to be a lot fatter. People were mean, treatment was different. Trust me, no one is actually *nice* to the obese (women) in the US in a meaningful way. That weight prevented me from getting jobs and really living a truly full life. And maybe it was deserved as I was hurting my health.

                        OK, so then you know, I woke and said "Arby's is a bad idea, as is Hardees". That was some odd 20 years ago. I'm not sure what my motivation was.... maybe it was my classmates that wrote on my locker "Maggie is a Whale" in college. Maybe it was the moo's from the frat boys when I walked past their house on my way to educate myself. Maybe it was the girls really trying to keep their distance from associating with the fat chick. I don't really know, but you know what, there was plenty of criticism of my fat and certainly not any acceptance.

                        So I got my shit together and spent some odd 15 years trying to make it work. The first 50lbs were easy to lose. The next 50 were brutal. I could make you a list of shit I did in the quest to be "socially acceptable level of fat". There were pills, exercise, vomiting, more exercise, and a lot of cycles of starving, then eating. ALl served with a healthy dose of self hatred. I got down to a sort of "acceptable" weight and size (well, out of plus sizes at least) and as I crossed the line of a marathon, quite an achievement for an "unhealthy body", what crossed my mind was that people probably thought my thighs are fucking gross and I hoped no one would make a comment about my weight to ruin my day like so many other days had been ruined.

                        So finally, I find the holy grail of Primal Eating + Cross Fit. And I get my body smaller than it was since I was like 11. And I'm happy because I feel great and IMO, look great. Then I look around at all the women smaller then me bitching and moaning about looking fat. Then someone puts up a pic of a body not too far off from mine and is all "she should not flaunt herself, she is unhealthy". And so here I am, back to the same place I was in college, hearing the same damn message that I need to just go hide myself until I am a size 2, thanks.

                        But now, instead of going and crying into a pint of Ben and Jerry's, I just say fuck you. I spent half my useful time on earth worried about offending someone with my ass size. And let me tell you, being offended or not thinking I (or a woman like me) should be wearing a bikini on the beach because we are a poor example of health or somehow making it OK to be "unhealthy" is BULLSHIT. So you know what, I don't care anymore. Feel free to come moo at me, I have a damn good left hook these days.

                        But why I really care is because I know there is some 200lbwoman or a 300lb woman reading this. She's probably scared to go to the beach and wear a swimsuit or wanting to join a gym but afraid of the "judgement". Maybe she just wants to wear a sexy dress instead of a dumpy fat person ok outfit. I want that girl to know that yup, we can all improve our bodies. But stop hiding yourself and start living like you would live if you had an amazing body. Yes, use some common sense in dressing, but if you want a bikini to get some sun on your tummy, go find one in your size and wear it. If it's 90 out, feel free to wear shorts to your running group. Go kayaking if you want. Eat healthy foods without apology. If at the end of your hard work out, you are light headed and need a banana, EAT ONE without feeling "sinful". Don't apologize for eating the occasional dessert. It's not like you kicked a baby. Respect your body, eat good food, move a lot, your health will get better.

                        BTW, the same goes for men. You are more than the muscle you can build. Don't apologize or be ashamed if you are weak, just keep working at it.

                        And if you are lucky to have a great body, congrats. You know though, a kind word, some encouraging advice or just being supportive is a lot more useful than just sitting in judgement of those with lesser bodies.

                        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by quikky View Post
                          Seriously? I've never been to Asia, is that really a normal occurrence there
                          Oh man, this evenings happenings were so timely, here's an example from dinner, before I forget...

                          Family dinner. Wife's brother walks in. Wife tells me loudly, "oh look how fat he got" (5lb over). I try to sush her, unsuccessfully. As a greeting to him she exclaims joyfully "hey I thought your wife was having the baby, you too?!". Bam public shame. He countered later in the evening by patting her belly "you having a baby too?" (wife is 124lb and realizes she needs to lose 4lb). So public shame on her too bwahaha! But now she will do something about it this coming week.

                          They didn't screw with me, they did that last year pre-paleo.

                          It's a blast, they definitely keep it real.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                            I think the problem is that at what point to you change from fat slob jacking up insurance into acceptable human that is healthy? Realize that for some people especially women that line may have them not looking great in a bikini and that the next step, looking good in that bikini might not be a net positive for health.

                            That pic that annoyed me- the woman is not 300 lbs. I'm gonna put her in the 160-180 weight class. She probably wears a 10/12. So, she is representative of a good chunk of women. I'm going to bet we have similar body fat %'s, her fat is in her stomach area, mine is on my limbs. Now, I keep a healthy lifestyle. I've gone over it here a couple of times. I used to be a lot fatter. People were mean, treatment was different. Trust me, no one is actually *nice* to the obese (women) in the US in a meaningful way. That weight prevented me from getting jobs and really living a truly full life. And maybe it was deserved as I was hurting my health.

                            OK, so then you know, I woke and said "Arby's is a bad idea, as is Hardees". That was some odd 20 years ago. I'm not sure what my motivation was.... maybe it was my classmates that wrote on my locker "Maggie is a Whale" in college. Maybe it was the moo's from the frat boys when I walked past their house on my way to educate myself. Maybe it was the girls really trying to keep their distance from associating with the fat chick. I don't really know, but you know what, there was plenty of criticism of my fat and certainly not any acceptance.

                            So I got my shit together and spent some odd 15 years trying to make it work. The first 50lbs were easy to lose. The next 50 were brutal. I could make you a list of shit I did in the quest to be "socially acceptable level of fat". There were pills, exercise, vomiting, more exercise, and a lot of cycles of starving, then eating. ALl served with a healthy dose of self hatred. I got down to a sort of "acceptable" weight and size (well, out of plus sizes at least) and as I crossed the line of a marathon, quite an achievement for an "unhealthy body", what crossed my mind was that people probably thought my thighs are fucking gross and I hoped no one would make a comment about my weight to ruin my day like so many other days had been ruined.

                            So finally, I find the holy grail of Primal Eating + Cross Fit. And I get my body smaller than it was since I was like 11. And I'm happy because I feel great and IMO, look great. Then I look around at all the women smaller then me bitching and moaning about looking fat. Then someone puts up a pic of a body not too far off from mine and is all "she should not flaunt herself, she is unhealthy". And so here I am, back to the same place I was in college, hearing the same damn message that I need to just go hide myself until I am a size 2, thanks.

                            But now, instead of going and crying into a pint of Ben and Jerry's, I just say fuck you. I spent half my useful time on earth worried about offending someone with my ass size. And let me tell you, being offended or not thinking I (or a woman like me) should be wearing a bikini on the beach because we are a poor example of health or somehow making it OK to be "unhealthy" is BULLSHIT. So you know what, I don't care anymore. Feel free to come moo at me, I have a damn good left hook these days.

                            But why I really care is because I know there is some 200lbwoman or a 300lb woman reading this. She's probably scared to go to the beach and wear a swimsuit or wanting to join a gym but afraid of the "judgement". Maybe she just wants to wear a sexy dress instead of a dumpy fat person ok outfit. I want that girl to know that yup, we can all improve our bodies. But stop hiding yourself and start living like you would live if you had an amazing body. Yes, use some common sense in dressing, but if you want a bikini to get some sun on your tummy, go find one in your size and wear it. If it's 90 out, feel free to wear shorts to your running group. Go kayaking if you want. Eat healthy foods without apology. If at the end of your hard work out, you are light headed and need a banana, EAT ONE without feeling "sinful". Don't apologize for eating the occasional dessert. It's not like you kicked a baby. Respect your body, eat good food, move a lot, your health will get better.

                            BTW, the same goes for men. You are more than the muscle you can build. Don't apologize or be ashamed if you are weak, just keep working at it.

                            And if you are lucky to have a great body, congrats. You know though, a kind word, some encouraging advice or just being supportive is a lot more useful than just sitting in judgement of those with lesser bodies.
                            Absolutely. I was overweight all my adult life. Even when I did speedskating and got an enormous amount of exercise, I was heavy. I recall talking with the coach about it, and he said he didn't have any recommendations he could give me, because I ate the best diet on the team. Real meals, meat, vegetables, and fruit.

                            After I gave up gluten a decade ago I didn't lose any weight, and I wasn't eating any gluten substitutes.

                            If people say I'm lying, I don't care.

                            A rock-climbing injury is a rare occurrence. Serious bicycling injuries happen all the time.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                              Oh man, this evenings happenings were so timely, here's an example from dinner, before I forget...

                              Family dinner. Wife's brother walks in. Wife tells me loudly, "oh look how fat he got" (5lb over). I try to sush her, unsuccessfully. As a greeting to him she exclaims joyfully "hey I thought your wife was having the baby, you too?!". Bam public shame. He countered later in the evening by patting her belly "you having a baby too?" (wife is 124lb and realizes she needs to lose 4lb). So public shame on her too bwahaha! But now she will do something about it this coming week.

                              They didn't screw with me, they did that last year pre-paleo.

                              It's a blast, they definitely keep it real.
                              Korean Recovery Room Portraits - ANIMAL

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by katiepotato View Post
                                The best example I can think of being an enquiry from a colleague from the Philippines as to what I was doing to make my stomach flatter, shortly followed by a comment that it was good I'd done so because "you were very fat before." Not incorrect, but not usually something that I'd expect a work colleague to be so direct about!
                                Classic!

                                I walked into a KR company dinner meeting. Was addressed by a female, of younger age, and lower corporate rank "you gained your weight", the whole table could hear. The whole table nodded agreement.

                                LOL. Now I mention her gender and age because you DO NOT address a male in a higher income bracket in this sort of disrespectful tone in NE Asia. Had it been any other topic she would have received a royal verbal lashing and might as well just start looking for another job. But calling a senior colleague a fat ass? Oh that's perfectly acceptable!!!

                                Another time I was interviewing my CPA friend from Beijing, trying to get her into the company. She hadn't seen me in years and exclaimed "you gained weight", I changed the subject but she added "around your waist". Jezus, I am interviewing you for crying out loud!!! She didn't get the job.

                                To be honest though, accurate feedback prompted me to correct the problem. I'm now 40 and in the best shape of my life.

                                Originally posted by katiepotato View Post
                                We also have an office in Hong Kong, and I don't even bother going into the clothes shops when I'm over there as from past experience I will be greeted either with the statement that they have NOTHING which will fit me, or asked very loudly if I would like an EXTRA LARGE.
                                This is soooo Asian.

                                An expat said he went into the hospital and asked for a test, girl exclaimed *loudly* "AIDS?! YOU WANTA AIDS TESTAH?". Everyone in the waiting room looked over and assumed he had AIDS.

                                Nice.

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