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  • #16
    Originally posted by rockrunner View Post
    I'm a decent runner no matter what I do...I'm just looking for things others here use as bench marks for minimum strength training...I know I need to improve in that area but how much time do I need to dedicate to weight training is the real question for me.

    In running there is a sweet spot around 15 - 25 miles a week that you get the most health benefit for your time...where is that for strength training?
    it changes as you adapt... but at the beginning I would suggest a starting strength routine similar to:

    3x a week
    about 30-45 minutes a session

    Workout A
    Squats 5x5
    Bench Press 5x5
    Bent Over Row 5x5

    Workout B
    Squats 5x5
    Deadlift 1x5
    Overhead Press 5x5

    One week do ABA (mon/wed/fri for example), next week do BAB.

    To me that is pretty close to bare minimum requirements to grow at an effective and efficient pace.

    Another routine example for bare minimums would be Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 (google)...

    5/3/1 Squats
    5/3/1 Deadlift
    5/3/1 Bench Press

    That is one of the most basic routines that is still an effective strength gainer.

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    • #17
      Strength is relative to body-weight. The basics should be an ability to do calisthenics and climb, lift and bear moderate (realistic) weights...etc Imagine you need to be strong enough to climb trees and rock-faces, carry your child, take dinner home, move camp, sprint on occasion and push moderately heavy things off yourself. That's a basic level of human strength, a-la-"wild-human".
      --
      Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

      --
      I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
      I'd apologize, but...

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
        I guess your an endurance athlete or something then? You could practice HIT 1-2x/week and be all set. Check out Body by Science.
        My only short <10 minute machine weight training I do now is a "Big 2 Body by Science" upper body only workout which works great for maintaining some beginner strength.

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        • #19
          If you are lifting barbells, strstd.com is a great benchmark for you current strength levels.

          This is a great description of barbell based strength levels (mark has a bodyweight specific one in the PBF pdf as well)
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Within two years of consistent training on a decent routine, the average male should be able to progress to the following levels of strength (1RM):

          Strength Goals: Intermediate

          Bench press: body weight x 1.2

          Chin-ups or pull-ups: body weight x 1.2 or 8 reps with body weight.

          Squat: body weight x 1.6

          Deadlift: body weight x 2

          These numbers are for a raw (no straps, belt or knee wraps) single repetition.

          The progress towards the intermediate strength goals should be fairly linear, meaning that there should be no plateaus that cannot be solved in an uncomplicated manner. By "consistent" training I do not mean never missing a training day, nor do I consider taking 2-3 months off from training consistent.

          By "decent training routine", I mean "not doing blatantly stupid shit" (training 5-6 days/week, 20-25 sets for chest and arms, etc.). I do not mean optimal and flawless.


          Strength Goals: Advanced

          Under the exact same conditions as the previous example, 3 out of 4 of the following goals should be reached within five years, along with all of the strength goals listed under "intermediate":

          Bench press: body weight x 1.5

          Chin-ups or pull-ups: body weight x 1.5 or 15 reps with body weight.

          Squat: body weight x 2

          Deadlift: body weight x 2.5


          Strength Goals: Highly Advanced

          Under the exact same conditions, all of the following goals should be reached within ten years. Alternatively, 3 out of 4 should be reached, and one should be "Elite":

          Bench press: body weight x 1.5, or x 1.8 (elite)

          Chin-ups or pull-ups: body weight x 1.5 or 15 reps with body weight, or x 1.8 / 20 reps (elite)

          Squat: body weight x 2, or x 2.4 (elite)

          Deadlift: body weight x 2.5, or x 3 (elite)

          "Elite" denotes one lift that is often ahead of the others. For example, people who are natural pullers (long arms) may very well hit a 3 x body weight deadlift before a 1.5 x body weight bench, and vice versa for the presser (short arms, stocky and barrel-chested) benching 1.8 x body weight but not being able to pull 2.5 x body weight in the deadlift.

          The highly advanced strength goals falls in line with what could be considered the pinnacle of physique and strength development for most average and natural trainers. At this point, progress is very slow.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rockrunner View Post
            How strong is strong enough?

            There are different body types and a wide spectrum of opinions out there...so what do you say is the minimum amount of strength that should be attained? I have a skinny runner type body so hi strength is way out there for me but there must be a "best bang for the buck" efficiency for training time vs strength.
            The question is: strong enough for what? For watching TV? You're already strong enough. For doing basic physical activity? Also strong enough. For playing a sport? For working construction? For...? You get the idea.

            In my opinion, a good level of strength for a person not involved in strength sports is approximately at or near the point of the intermediate phase of lifting. The novice phase, the one prior to the intermediate phase, is when you can eat, sleep, lift, and make progress every time you do it. When you're still eating, sleeping, and lifting, and you cannot progress every workout, then you're "strong enough" in my mind. This level depends on your gender, age, proportions, genetics, etc.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by dabears View Post
              it changes as you adapt... but at the beginning I would suggest a starting strength routine similar to:

              3x a week
              about 30-45 minutes a session

              Workout A
              Squats 5x5
              Bench Press 5x5
              Bent Over Row 5x5

              Workout B
              Squats 5x5
              Deadlift 1x5
              Overhead Press 5x5
              Change it to:

              Workout A
              Squats 3x5
              Bench Press 3x5
              Chin/pull-ups 3x5

              Workout B
              Squats 3x5
              Overhead Press 3x5
              Deadlift 1x5

              5x5 three times a week won't work for long. Starting Strength does 3 sets of 5 reps for everything, one set of 5 for deadlifts, and 5 sets of 3 for power cleans.

              Deadlifts right after squats are not the best idea.

              Also, I have no idea how you can expect to do a workout with 5x5 squats + other lifts in 30-45 minutes. Heck, 30-45 minutes for 5x5 of heavy squats alone is pushing it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                The question is: strong enough for what? For watching TV? You're already strong enough. For doing basic physical activity? Also strong enough. For playing a sport? For working construction? For...? You get the idea.

                In my opinion, a good level of strength for a person not involved in strength sports is approximately at or near the point of the intermediate phase of lifting. The novice phase, the one prior to the intermediate phase, is when you can eat, sleep, lift, and make progress every time you do it. When you're still eating, sleeping, and lifting, and you cannot progress every workout, then you're "strong enough" in my mind. This level depends on your gender, age, proportions, genetics, etc.
                I'm probably at that level most of the time...just a bit under the intermediate level that dabears posted above. Hmm... looks like i may have to experiment some...diminishing returns for time spent weigh training...picking and choosing on whats gets the most out of limited time.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by quikky View Post
                  Change it to:

                  Workout A
                  Squats 3x5
                  Bench Press 3x5
                  Chin/pull-ups 3x5

                  Workout B
                  Squats 3x5
                  Overhead Press 3x5
                  Deadlift 1x5

                  5x5 three times a week won't work for long. Starting Strength does 3 sets of 5 reps for everything, one set of 5 for deadlifts, and 5 sets of 3 for power cleans.

                  Deadlifts right after squats are not the best idea.

                  Also, I have no idea how you can expect to do a workout with 5x5 squats + other lifts in 30-45 minutes. Heck, 30-45 minutes for 5x5 of heavy squats alone is pushing it.
                  probably more like 60 minutes you are right, resting 2 minutes in between... longer if you do 3 minutes.

                  I posted stronglifts you are right, not starting strength. both are effective for beginners imo though

                  my current strength/hypertrophy mix workout that I made myself:

                  A:
                  Squat 5/6/7/8 (reverse pyramid, start with 5RM topset after warmup and reduce weight by 10% for next set, go up one rep.)
                  Romanian Deadlift 3x10
                  Standing Calf Raises 3x15

                  B:
                  Bench press 5/6/7/8 (reverse pyramid)
                  Incline DB Press 3x6-8
                  Pushups - 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12/13/14/15 (get up after each set, touch wall, back down and go for one more rep... try and get 15 rounds. I only get to 10th round, finisher)

                  C:
                  Deadlifts 5/6 (reverse pryamid)
                  Overhead Press 5/6/7 (reverse pyramid)
                  Chinups 3x6-8 (bodyweight or if weighted, reverse pyramid)
                  Barbell Rows 3x10
                  Last edited by dabears; 05-24-2013, 03:03 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rockrunner View Post
                    That sounds right, I have to make myself weight train because its suppose to be good for you but I don't obviously see the benefits...they are kinda hidden. Endurance exercising I see the benefits easily so its hard to swap out one for other to me. I'm just trying to find the right amount of strength training to add in.
                    Then do some type of bodyweight training such as You Are Your Own Gym.
                    Eating primal is not a diet, it is a way of life.
                    PS
                    Don't forget to play!

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                    • #25
                      If you let strength numbers motvate you, then you'll never get strong enough! Lets say you want to squat 300 pounds and when you finally get there you will most likely have changed your strength goals for squats to 400 instead...
                      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                      - Schopenhauer

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                      • #26
                        How much time? With weight lifting it seems the sweet spot varies for people and often it's a lot less time than they actually spend. I'm doing about 1.5 hours a week of it--30 minutes 3x a week, maybe a little less, not counting the class I'm taking that will be finished next week. You can probably do even less than that and still get benefits. Most of the time I'm in the gym I'm actually resting between sets.

                        What matters most is the amount of time between workouts. The sweet spot is really finding the amount of optimal recovery time so that you are at just the right point in the stress cycle that you can receive more stress to stimulate more adaptation. Wait too long and you never get any stronger. Wait too short and you overtrain and don't get any stronger. Most people overtrain.
                        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          My personal strength minimums are:

                          1) Be able to punch a bear square in the face if necessary
                          2) Be able to pick up someone larger than you and drop them on their head
                          3) Be able to push a car with an old lady stuck inside out of the path of an oncoming train
                          4) Be able to climb to safety (Climb what? From what? The answer to both is ANYTHING)
                          5) Do pullups with someone hanging off of you
                          6) Be able to push a burning tree or boulder off of your pinned body
                          7) Run through a wall of ice to escape a Yeti

                          But everyone's different.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rockrunner View Post
                            I'm probably at that level most of the time...just a bit under the intermediate level that dabears posted above. Hmm... looks like i may have to experiment some...diminishing returns for time spent weigh training...picking and choosing on whats gets the most out of limited time.
                            That's (bolded) not what determines intermediate level, at least not in the context of my post. Your rate of adaptation determines whether you are a novice or not, not how much weight you can lift.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by quikky View Post
                              That's (bolded) not what determines intermediate level, at least not in the context of my post. Your rate of adaptation determines whether you are a novice or not, not how much weight you can lift.
                              I'm way a beginner for strength training with weights...it seems to take me about 8 weeks to stall on strength increases with my 10 minute workout then I stop for a few weeks then start a new cycle....I just started a new cycle about 3 weeks back this time when I stall out I'm going to change things up and keep going. I have access to a weight room at work for about 20 minutes every work day so maybe I can do something with that time....not exactly my idea of recreation though.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rockrunner View Post
                                I'm way a beginner for strength training with weights...it seems to take me about 8 weeks to stall on strength increases with my 10 minute workout then I stop for a few weeks then start a new cycle....I just started a new cycle about 3 weeks back this time when I stall out I'm going to change things up and keep going. I have access to a weight room at work for about 20 minutes every work day so maybe I can do something with that time....not exactly my idea of recreation though.
                                How much strength you need really depends on your goals. Doing compound movements with barbells is one of the best things that you can do for your health. For example, if you have a strong squat, deadlift, and overhead press, you've come a long way toward keeping your knees, lower back, and shoulders, respectively, surgery free.

                                If you only have 20 minutes, a lot can still be accomplished. I'd suggest doing one lift each day. So, you could squat on Monday, press on Wednesday, and deadlift on Friday. Adding in chinups somewhere wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

                                Most importantly, remember that strength itself isn't the end. It's the means to an end (your goals).
                                In matters of style, swim with the current. In matters of principle, stand like a rock.

                                This message has been intercepted by the NSA, the only branch of government that listens.

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