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  • HIT time under load and Strength rep schemes

    So I didn't use the term "vs" because I'm not focusing on an either/or discussion. Actually I'm looking at some commonalities in the building of strength and muscle between what at first glance seems to be different philosophies. I can't take complete credit either because I know I've read some of this in the past elsewhere... just cant put my finger on where.

    So something for us to look into and think about. I currently do one working set to failure that usually lasts between 50-90 seconds depending on the exercise and if I've just increased the resistance ect.... This is a TUL or Time under tension without rest and without lockout of the joints. Currently my cadence is close to 5/5 so anywere from 4-8 reps usually. When you do a slow cadence the first 2 reps are usually purposely slowed while the last couple reps are that slow cause your pushing with 100% effort and the weight just ain't gonna move any faster.

    When we perform multiple sets how much time is your muscle actually under tension? 1-2 seconds concentric and maybe 2 seconds eccentric right? So less than half the time under tension for a working set of 5. Seems likely that 3-5 sets will get your TUL to the same totals right? Is this just an interesting coincidence or is there a mechanism to this total time of muscular work that is optimal for stimulating increased muscle size and strength? What do you think?

    Oh, to reiterate....not a "my program is better than yours" discussion here. I actually blend the two right now, but have done both exclusively also.

    If anyone finds the blog post that I stole this from please post it.....
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 05-05-2013, 01:11 PM.

  • #2
    if i remember correctly, dorian yates used to train in this manner. several "warm-up" sets, culminating in one working set. i'm not exactly sure of the cadence he performed the lifts of that working set.

    how many warm-up sets are you performing before you actually do the working set? and at what cadence and rep ranges? what % of the weight of the working set?

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    • #3
      Well this was my last workout:

      Weighted Chins 50lbs/drop set to BW 60s/32s TUL
      Weighted Dips 60lbs/drop set to BW 47s/27s TUL
      Leg press 87s TUL

      HIT to failure with about a 5/5 cadence. No rest between exercises. Followed this routine with some pushups and lateral raises as some "accessory" work.

      So rep wise wise I do fall in the 4-8 category depending on if you count my drop set which is done as part of my original and flows right in since all I do is drop the weight belt and continue.

      For warmup I go through the whole workout 2x as a circuit with no weight and just do the movements 5-10 reps.

      Its really hard to say what percent of my max I am working at. I haven't maxed out in a very long time. This weight is definitely "heavy" for me though. Sure I could be doing more weight with no attention to cadence and using more momentum, but that tends to go against why I'm using this method. I go till temporary muscle failure then stay contracted for at least 10 seconds as a rule.

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      • #4
        Well this was my last workout:

        Weighted Chins 50lbs/drop set to BW 60s/32s TUL
        Weighted Dips 60lbs/drop set to BW 47s/27s TUL
        Leg press 87s TUL

        HIT to failure with about a 5/5 cadence. No rest between exercises. Followed this routine with some pushups and lateral raises as some "accessory" work.

        So rep wise wise I do fall in the 4-8 category depending on if you count my drop set which is done as part of my original and flows right in since all I do is drop the weight belt and continue. I go more by time under load though.... and when I break 60s I raise the weight. So next time weighted chins will be 55lbs.

        For warmup I go through the whole workout 2x as a circuit with no weight and just do the movements 5-10 reps.

        Its really hard to say what percent of my max I am working at. I haven't maxed out in a very long time. This weight is definitely "heavy" for me though. Sure I could be doing more weight with no attention to cadence and using more momentum, but that tends to go against why I'm using this method. I go till temporary muscle failure then stay contracted for at least 10 seconds as a rule.
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 05-06-2013, 08:56 AM.

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        • #5
          Instead of doing drop-set I prefer to do rest-pause with the same load. Lets say I am doing weighted dips; in the final top set I do one initial set of around 8 reps close to failure. Then I take 5 - 6 deep breaths and a miniset of 2-3 close to failure. Then another 5-6 deep breaths and 1-2 reps close to failure. Then I shorten the pause a little to 3 - 5 deep breath and continue with one rep, same pause until failure, usually after 3 - 4 repetition of one. then I climb up and do 2 -3 negatives, but without any rest between, to come close to eccentric failure as well. Training like that is pretty strong medicine, so make sure not to overdo it...
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            Instead of doing drop-set I prefer to do rest-pause with the same load. Lets say I am doing weighted dips; in the final top set I do one initial set of around 8 reps close to failure. Then I take 5 - 6 deep breaths and a miniset of 2-3 close to failure. Then another 5-6 deep breaths varand 1-2 reps close to failure. Then I shorten the pause a little to 3 - 5 deep breath and continue with one rep, same pause until failure, usually after 3 - 4 repetition of one. then I climb up and do 2 -3 negatives, but without any rest between, to come close to eccentric failure as well. Training like that is pretty strong medicine, so make sure not to overdo it...
            Yup I like the various HIT techniques and switch them out when things get stale. Rest pause is great. That rest pause then hitting eccentric failure sounds pretty intense. I normally hit concentric failure then the static max contract for about ten seconds. I may give the eccentric work a shot next month when I switch things up.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
              Yup I like the various HIT techniques and switch them out when things get stale. Rest pause is great. That rest pause then hitting eccentric failure sounds pretty intense. I normally hit concentric failure then the static max contract for about ten seconds. I may give the eccentric work a shot next month when I switch things up.
              I usually train high volume, but I make sure to get a high intensity set in between, usually two or three times per month on a few of my key exercises. The good thing about weigthed dips is that you don't need a spotter to reach full failure. Some months ago I got chest pain after doing such a set, and x-ray discovered two fracturated ribs(!), but I am not sure if I got it from the dips or from the heavy dumbbell pullower that I did after it...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

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              • #8
                ^ Ouch! I would guess the pullover.....I have felt that really contract and hit those intercostal muscles before.

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                • #9
                  yeah, I may give the eccentric work a shot next month when I switch things up too

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                  • #10
                    Neck, I'm new to this way of working out. Was wondering do you keep your cadence consistent through each rep? Any advice when starting out? I'm focusing on body weight exercises and I use resistances bands, which is definitely not the best, but I'm making due with what I have. I'm also working on the mental aspects of pushing myself through to exhaustion. It's been quite the learning experience. I typically do 8-10 different exercises, full body, for a total TUL of 15-17 minutes. I'm exhausted by the end of the workout.
                    Nutritional Ketosis Journal - http://dobnk.blogspot.com/ and http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83999.html

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                    • #11
                      Training like that is pretty strong medicine, so make sure not to overdo it

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dob View Post
                        Neck, I'm new to this way of working out. Was wondering do you keep your cadence consistent through each rep? Any advice when starting out? I'm focusing on body weight exercises and I use resistances bands, which is definitely not the best, but I'm making due with what I have. I'm also working on the mental aspects of pushing myself through to exhaustion. It's been quite the learning experience. I typically do 8-10 different exercises, full body, for a total TUL of 15-17 minutes. I'm exhausted by the end of the workout.

                        I try to keep cadence about the same. Moving slowly and deliberately with special attention paid to the turn arounds. That is, make sure your not bouncing or using momentum when shifting from eccentric to concentric or vice versa.

                        The whole cadence and TUL thing is based on muscle recruitment and the concept of systematically fatiguing each of your muscle fiber types to the fullest thereby stimulating max strength and muscle gain. So your TUL has to be short enough (with high enough resistance) to fatigue your muscles fully before any of the fibers recover. This can vary a little from person to person, but for me it comes to about 60s of work for upper body stuff and 90s for lower body per set.

                        I've done super slow at 10/10 and it's fine but I prefer a bit faster pace so I'm around a 5/5 cadence. I think as long as your motion is controlled and your moving the weight without jerky stops then your fine to just keep track of your total TUL. I don't feel that cadence is a big to do.

                        Well hope that helps a bit. Let me know if you have any other questions. I'd recommend Drew Bayes site and Doug McDuffs stuff for some intro to this sort of lifting.

                        http://www.bodybyscience.net/home.html/

                        High Intensity Training by Drew Baye - Bodybuilding, Nutrition, Fitness and Health

                        Once you got the basics down you can play with different HIT techniques and see what you like.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          I try to keep cadence about the same. Moving slowly and deliberately with special attention paid to the turn arounds. That is, make sure your not bouncing or using momentum when shifting from eccentric to concentric or vice versa.

                          The whole cadence and TUL thing is based on muscle recruitment and the concept of systematically fatiguing each of your muscle fiber types to the fullest thereby stimulating max strength and muscle gain. So your TUL has to be short enough (with high enough resistance) to fatigue your muscles fully before any of the fibers recover. This can vary a little from person to person, but for me it comes to about 60s of work for upper body stuff and 90s for lower body per set.

                          I've done super slow at 10/10 and it's fine but I prefer a bit faster pace so I'm around a 5/5 cadence. I think as long as your motion is controlled and your moving the weight without jerky stops then your fine to just keep track of your total TUL. I don't feel that cadence is a big to do.

                          Well hope that helps a bit. Let me know if you have any other questions. I'd recommend Drew Bayes site and Doug McDuffs stuff for some intro to this sort of lifting.

                          http://www.bodybyscience.net/home.html/

                          High Intensity Training by Drew Baye - Bodybuilding, Nutrition, Fitness and Health

                          Once you got the basics down you can play with different HIT techniques and see what you like.
                          Thank you. Your explanation was clear and concise, and ultimately very helpful. It's a good reminder as I read through BBS and Baye.com blog, I have information overload. I will continue to focus on form for now and my turnarounds. The bouncing become more difficult to avoid at the end of the exercise due to exhaustion, as well as maintaining the cadence as I tend to speed up. I do write down what my cadence was from week to week, but I find that it changes. As I start the exercise, whatever my first rep turns out to be I'll try to stick with through each rep. Not very consistent at this point. I cough it up to being green and know my obsessive ways will kick in and I'll have to become more and more discipline about my timing.

                          Are you doing splits or whole body routines? How often do you workout? Do you any other sorts of physical activity during the week?

                          I hope you keep this thread going and give us updates, tweaks and thoughts. Again, appreciate the input.
                          Nutritional Ketosis Journal - http://dobnk.blogspot.com/ and http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83999.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well I've been lifting on and off for over 20 years and am in my mid thirties now just to give you a baseline.

                            About 18 months ago I started doing the BBS big five routine 1x/week. I made fairly consistent gains with that for about 12 months. Outside of that 1x/week workout I would do random bodyweight stuff, maybe 1x HIIT day, and stay quite active in general.

                            So six months ago or so I decided to try to split this to 2x/week (still whole body ....just a "big 3-4" exercises rather than the big five) so that I could work in dead lift on one day a week. It went well for the first few months, but I've stalled for at least 3-4 weeks now on my deadlift session. That and I don't feel like I have as much energy through the week for those random body weight and HIIT activities. I'm going to continue with this for another couple weeks and then take a full 2 week recovery while I decide what to do next.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Well I've been lifting on and off for over 20 years and am in my mid thirties now just to give you a baseline.

                              About 18 months ago I started doing the BBS big five routine 1x/week. I made fairly consistent gains with that for about 12 months. Outside of that 1x/week workout I would do random bodyweight stuff, maybe 1x HIIT day, and stay quite active in general.

                              So six months ago or so I decided to try to split this to 2x/week (still whole body ....just a "big 3-4" exercises rather than the big five) so that I could work in dead lift on one day a week. It went well for the first few months, but I've stalled for at least 3-4 weeks now on my deadlift session. That and I don't feel like I have as much energy through the week for those random body weight and HIIT activities. I'm going to continue with this for another couple weeks and then take a full 2 week recovery while I decide what to do next.
                              I read or saw, not sure if it was bay.com or youtube videos, that a longer than usual recovery period maybe necessary when progress has been flat or a persons genetics may require a longer rest period, especially as you become more advanced. Have you considered going back to working out once a week?

                              What I find strange is not lifting three days a week. That feeling of being pumped psychologically makes me feel that I'm accomplishing something. Now I feel pumped for a couple days and it fades as the week progresses, until my next workout. But I love this concept of lifting because it's so against the grain, like eating a majority of you calories in fats.

                              I worked out yesterday increasing the weight on some of the exercises and it really helped the intensity. Although, my total TUL decreased, I'm feeling very sore today.
                              Nutritional Ketosis Journal - http://dobnk.blogspot.com/ and http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83999.html

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