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Jumping OFF the Starting Strength bandwagon!

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  • #31
    This thread has done nothing but confuse a whole load of people who were considering doing Starting Strength.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by Coach Palfrey View Post
      This thread has done nothing but confuse a whole load of people who were considering doing Starting Strength.
      You shouldn't be surprised. Gorbag is a troll whose only purpose in being here is to misinform people and confuse them.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by OneDeltaTenTango View Post
        There is a great opportunity in the thread to move off of black and white and into advice that a novice lifter (me) can use. "if you start to notice X happening, then pay attention. You might consider doing more of Y and less of Z"
        These questions are answered for anyone bothering to do some research when doing The Program. Most failures and mistakes, when it comes to SS come from people not even knowing what the program really is. Who here has done SS? Out of those people, who has read the SS book? Who has recorded their lifts and checked for form? Who even knows exactly what proper form is?

        Too many people just Google "Rippetoe" or "Starting Strength", pull out the basic template, start doing it, and think they're following the program. Then you get a bunch of unfounded half-assed arguments like SS is about getting fat, or that everyone should do GOMAD, or that you can do it forever, or what a low-bar squat even is, i.e. symptoms of profound ignorance and lack of research on the routine and what it entails, and why.

        Gorbag is on a crusade to interject nit-picked strawman arguments into every thread that has the words Rippetoe, barbell, or Starting Strength. I still don't know what his point is. I don't think he knows either.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Coach Palfrey View Post
          This thread has done nothing but confuse a whole load of people who were considering doing Starting Strength.
          I would hope that a person's decision to follow Starting Strength would not be based on a post on the MDA forum with a picture of a crashed locomotive.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by OneDeltaTenTango View Post
            Sure. But that doesn't mean people haven't killed themselves by doing some of the above.

            The question back to the OP: what guidance would you give someone who is crossing that bridge from novice to intermediate and when? What are the warning signs that the locomotive is going to go through the wall soon? Obviously for the crashing locomotive, the advice is jump off, but I suspect the advice for someone advancing through sS progression is something more nuanced than drop the barbells and do some pushups.

            There is a great opportunity in the thread to move off of black and white and into advice that a novice lifter (me) can use. "if you start to notice X happening, then pay attention. You might consider doing more of Y and less of Z"
            It's a good question since there will be an increased risk and less reward while riding the bandwagon, and who are better to answer it than the followers of Rippetoes system, let’s hear from them when the optimal time is to jump off? Generally I can say that the Starting Strength followers are torn between two inherently contradictions in the system; one is keeping a good form in the lifts – and the other is aggressively progress from session to session by loading more and more weights on the barbell. So when the lifters are struggling to keep a good form in the lifts he is also instructed and tempted to go overboard by overloading the barbell – and sooner or later the DISASTER will happen, usually when form is neglected or breaks down, if not backing out in time…
            Last edited by Gorbag; 04-30-2013, 02:53 PM.
            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

            - Schopenhauer

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            • #36
              Originally posted by quikky View Post
              These questions are answered for anyone bothering to do some research when doing The Program. Most failures and mistakes, when it comes to SS come from people not even knowing what the program really is. Who here has done SS? Out of those people, who has read the SS book? Who has recorded their lifts and checked for form? Who even knows exactly what proper form is?

              Too many people just Google "Rippetoe" or "Starting Strength", pull out the basic template, start doing it, and think they're following the program. Then you get a bunch of unfounded half-assed arguments like SS is about getting fat, or that everyone should do GOMAD, or that you can do it forever, or what a low-bar squat even is, i.e. symptoms of profound ignorance and lack of research on the routine and what it entails, and why.

              Gorbag is on a crusade to interject nit-picked strawman arguments into every thread that has the words Rippetoe, barbell, or Starting Strength. I still don't know what his point is. I don't think he knows either.
              I have the book, have read it, have re-read parts of it, have started lifting, working with a form coach (some of whose training was by Ripptoe himself) . And at 54 I am not at all interested in pushing my body too far, too fast and into injury. Sbhikes notes earlier in the thread that the SS forum is full of people king questions about injuries. Now I am not that worried about myself in the near term as I am more motivated to focus on form than see progressive lifting gains, but trust that there will come a time when the Newby gains taper off and when the kinds of issues that gorbag alludes to (but hasn't defined or clearly articulated) may begin appear. What are early warning signs, if any? What are preemptive strategies if needed?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                This tread is about getting OFF the SS bandwagon in right time quikky, and not ride it too far...
                That's a fair caution.

                The problem is most people don't know when to stop. If the goal is to continue to increase the weight, when do the weight increases end? For most people the answer is -- when they get injured.

                Same with chronic-cardio, people don't know when to stop.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                  You shouldn't be surprised. Gorbag is a troll whose only purpose in being here is to misinform people and confuse them.
                  Thank you for that! And that comes from a poster that swear that she can gain weight in a calorie deficit - and below 800 calories per day...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                    It's a good question since there will be an increased risk and less reward while riding the bandwagon, and who are better to answer it than the followers of Rippetoes system, let’s hear from them when the optimal time is to jump off? Generally I can say that the Starting Strength followers are torn between two inherently contradictions in the system; one is keeping a good form in the lifts – and the other is aggressively progress from session to session by loading more and more weights on the barbell. So when the lifters are struggling to keep a good form in the lifts he is also instructed and tempted to go overboard by overloading the barbell – and sooner or later the DISASTER will happen, usually when form is neglected or breaks down, if not backing out in time…
                    Does Rippetoe recommend someone add weight to their deadlift if they can't keep proper lumbar extension? Does Rippetoe recommend someone squat more, if they can't squat with good form? Do you even know what Starting Strength is about, except for the fact that it is with barbells?

                    Countless people have followed Starting Strength and ended up much stronger without DISASTER. Injuries do happen, just like in every sport. If you want 100% guarantee of painless injury free existence, stay in bed.

                    Your point is just another strawman.

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                    • #40
                      When to stop barbell training? When you reach your goals.

                      How do you know what the "warning signs" are? Common sense.

                      Is your form good? Follow the program. Is your form bad? Fix it (you've read the book, right?), and use less weight to ingrain proper form if you have to. Something hurting? Figure out why and use your brain on how to proceed.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        Thank you for that! And that comes from a poster that swear that she can gain weight in a calorie deficit - and below 800 calories per day...
                        The answer is so simple I am surprised even you did not think of it. Unbelievable, the idea that a pound of fat and a pound of protein have different caloric values! That the fabled "must eat exactly 3500 calories to gain a pound" of lore does not take into account that lean muscle mass only contains about 660 calories per pound! Though poor Gorbag must consume an excess of 2840 calories of energy in order to convert that steak into lean muscle mass, not all of us are cursed with such inefficient metabolisms.

                        Since you are mathematically innumerate, perhaps I should be rolling my eyes at you.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by quikky View Post
                          When to stop barbell training? When you reach your goals.

                          How do you know what the "warning signs" are? Common sense.
                          This thread is not about barbells as such, but about the Starting Strength bandwagon and progressive linear overload, so make sure that you are sitting on the right bandwagon, and please try again...
                          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                          - Schopenhauer

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                          • #43
                            The thread is about barbells and confusing readers who are new to this. That's what it means to be a troll.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                              This thread is not about barbells as such, but about the Starting Strength bandwagon and progressive linear overload, so make sure that you are sitting on the right bandwagon, and please try again...
                              Holy nit-pick Batman! Way to ignore my points and highlight a technicality.

                              I'm beginning to agree with Katherine. This is quickly drifting into troll territory.

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                              • #45
                                Mr. Gorbag -

                                Can you provide examples of anyone suggesting that weight be increased in the absence of correct form? I thought your problem was muscle tissue becoming stronger too fast for other tissue, such as tendons, to keep pace.

                                The majority of Starting Strength, Basic Barbell Training is devoted to teaching proper, safe form for the lifts. Anyone who thinks they are doing the program who has not read the book is not doing the program.

                                I'll gladly go on record as saying that one should not continue increasing the weight every workout if they are not able to do so with safe and correct form.

                                Your criticism is valid, but it is NOT a criticism of the Starting Strength program, or any of the coaches I've encountered on the SS forums, including Mr. Rippetoe.

                                That being said, a novice linear progression is the most effective way for a novice lifter to go from detrained to intermediate status. At which point linear progression is neither advised nor possible. And yes, I do think Starting Strength is the most appropriate novice program I've come into contact with. I wish I had understood and followed it when I began lifting, rather than doing ridiculous exercises like pistol squats with kettlebells on Bosu balls and trying to utilize a great variety of exercises for variety's sake, rather than progressing on the big lifts with appropriate volume and intensity. At least I know better now.

                                Tl;dr version: Dear Gorbag: Search function, noob.
                                The Champagne of Beards

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