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Jumping OFF the Starting Strength bandwagon!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
    I'm glad you enjoyed the photo eKathrine, it's meant to illustrate that linear progressive overload is a setup for DISASTER if you don't get off in time! A serious warning to the many SS fanboys- and girls around here...
    What about non-linear progressive overload, such as most intermediate lifting programs? Are we intermediates doomed to DISASTER as well?
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      Can you elaborate on why and when it becomes dangerous to lift a couple pounds more than you did in your last workout?

      I agree that there comes a point at which linear progress is no longer feasible, but I don't understand why you believe it becomes dangerous.

      Thanks!
      Structural imbalances that may accumulate over time, like muscle adaptions outgrows the tendons, and imbalance between agonist/antagonists, diet or medications etc... The few pounds that you put on the BAR from the last session may be the drop that make the water spill over so to say. And remember that recuperation is not necessary linear, so certain part may getting weaker when other parts get stronger, and BAM! - there I pulled my biceps off the bone by doing bent-over rowing with 250 pound and supinated grip…
      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

      - Schopenhauer

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
        My point is only that progressive linear overloading aka Starting Strength is a setup for DISASTER, and if jumping on the Bandwagon it is also important to get OFF the same bandwagon in time! So I am not against starting strength as a beginners routine at all as I already said in the OP, just make sure not to ride the linear overload progressing bandwagon to the bitter end, and to get off before the crash comes...
        You either don't really understand how Starting Strength works and for who, or you just like contradicting yourself. No one but beginners can use Starting Strength. If you are an advanced, or even intermediate lifter, you will not be able to use Starting Strength. In fact, this is how you know you're not a beginner, you can't progress as quickly! So saying you support the program for beginners but not "forever" makes no sense because only beginners can use it to begin with.

        You ever think about why it's called Starting Strength, and not Forever Strength, or Advanced Strength?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
          Structural imbalances that may accumulate over time, like muscle adaptions outgrows the tendons, and imbalance between agonist/antagonists, diet or medications etc... The few pounds that you put on the BAR from the last session may be the drop that make the water spill over so to say. And remember that recuperation is not necessary linear, so certain part may getting weaker when other parts get stronger, and BAM! - there I pulled my biceps off the bone by doing bent-over rowing with 250 pound and supinated grip…
          Astonishing. How did the human body manage to evolve with the ability for the muscle tissue to adapt to stress but the inability for the tendons to keep pace?
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
            Astonishing. How did the human body manage to evolve with the ability for the muscle tissue to adapt to stress but the inability for the tendons to keep pace?
            Unless... The connective tissue and bone also gets stronger along with the muscle... No... Can't be... Morpheus, pull the plug, I want to leave the Matrix!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
              What about non-linear progressive overload, such as most intermediate lifting programs? Are we intermediates doomed to DISASTER as well?
              Non-linear cyclical progression is what most advanced athletes uses, and much safer of course, and personally I have not had any real disasters after many years of lifting, but I have witnessed far too many, unfortunately...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                Non-linear cyclical progression is what most advanced athletes uses, and much safer of course, and personally I have not had any real disasters after many years of lifting, but I have witnessed far too many, unfortunately...
                So you approve of Starting Strength, i.e. linear progression, for beginners, and you approve of non-linear progression for advanced lifters. What exactly do you not approve of? Linear progression for advanced lifters? You know advanced lifters by definition cannot do linear progression, right? If they can, they are not advanced, or even intermediate.

                I honestly have no idea what you're arguing against at this point.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by quikky View Post
                  So you approve of Starting Strength, i.e. linear progression, for beginners, and you approve of non-linear progression for advanced lifters. What exactly do you not approve of? Linear progression for advanced lifters? You know advanced lifters by definition cannot do linear progression, right? If they can, they are not advanced, or even intermediate.

                  I honestly have no idea what you're arguing against at this point.
                  This tread is about getting OFF the SS bandwagon in right time quikky, and not ride it too far, so you are obviously the guy that argues or have problems by understanding that simple point! Some relatively advanced lifters doing HIT programming and linear progressing, can do so that because they are using safer machines and many reps so it get less risky than with heavy ass loaded barbells...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                    This tread is about getting OFF the SS bandwagon in right time quikky, and not ride it too far, so you are obviously the guy that argues or have problems by understanding that simple point!
                    Postulate what constitutes "riding it too far".

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                    • #25
                      He's upset that you and I have recommended Starting Strength to novices, so he's arguing that it's only appropriate for novices, since the program can only be done by novices, in the interest of protecting novices.
                      The Champagne of Beards

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                      • #26
                        You know, when you get too strong. I hate it when that happens, personally.
                        The Champagne of Beards

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          You know, when you get too strong. I hate it when that happens, personally.
                          Is that when your ligaments and tendons just snap off because they cannot handle your overly strong muscles and you have to switch to the leg press? 'Cuz that hasn't happened to me yet, maybe I am not strong enough? This makes me a sad panda.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                            You know, when you get too strong. I hate it when that happens, personally.
                            It's definatly possibly to lift more weight than might be good for you RichMahogany!

                            Here an article you should try to learn a little from, to get rid of some of your naive misunderstandings about strength:

                            T NATION | 6 Interesting Things About Strength
                            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                            - Schopenhauer

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                              It's definatly possibly to lift more weight than might be good for you RichMahogany!
                              A profound observation. I think it is so profound that it applies to everything in life! Consider:

                              It's definitely possible to <insert anything here> than might be good for you!

                              Use the following examples to insert into the above: drink water, eat food, sleep, drink.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                                A profound observation. I think it is so profound that it applies to everything in life! Consider:

                                It's definitely possible to <insert anything here> than might be good for you!

                                Use the following examples to insert into the above: drink water, eat food, sleep, drink.
                                Sure. But that doesn't mean people haven't killed themselves by doing some of the above.

                                The question back to the OP: what guidance would you give someone who is crossing that bridge from novice to intermediate and when? What are the warning signs that the locomotive is going to go through the wall soon? Obviously for the crashing locomotive, the advice is jump off, but I suspect the advice for someone advancing through sS progression is something more nuanced than drop the barbells and do some pushups.

                                There is a great opportunity in the thread to move off of black and white and into advice that a novice lifter (me) can use. "if you start to notice X happening, then pay attention. You might consider doing more of Y and less of Z"

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