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  • #46
    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    I did. And it is rubbish. The idea that a woman with 30% bodyfat is going to be "defined" if she puts on an unnatural amount of muscle is absurd.
    You turn my arguments into your own version of them and then beat your own version. Two women of the same body fat, but one with more lean body mass will look more defined. There's a difference between "more defined" and "defined" period.

    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    Women are not obsessed with "abs". They don't care about them at all. They would prefer not to have theirs show. It is guys who are obsessed with abs.

    I admit I don't know whether your other half is hefty or lean. But right here you are the one who is using an example of a borderline obese woman who you think would look lots better if she remained obese but put on as much muscle as a guy would put on.
    Abs is in reference to being very lean, both sexes are obsessed with it.

    I am not using that example, you're using that example. I made my point pretty clear and it is not what you just said.

    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    Could have fooled me. That "average" woman who you want to put on 20 pounds of muscle could have up to 31% body fat, which would make her clinically obese.
    Once again, you keep bringing this up, and once again, you are twisting my point into the extreme, and beating your version of the extreme. I am not saying an obese woman will become lean by lifting weights and staying obese, you are saying that and arguing against it.

    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    Women are afraid of looking bulky, which could happen to the average woman if she puts on muscle without losing excess body fat, given that the average woman is overweight or even obese. They've probably experienced working out for endless hours and putting on weight. But given the choice of being lean and muscular, they'd choose that over obesity any day. If it was really a choice.

    When I was a size 2X, I don't think putting on 20 pounds of muscle would have improved my enjoyment of life. If I'd had a real option of becoming lean (20%) and muscular, I'd have jumped at it. Hey, I did, and I'm almost there.
    This is exactly why women are afraid of weights.

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    • #47
      You are saying that a woman who is average in body fat (25-31%) who adds 20 pounds of muscle, a whole lot of muscle for a woman to add, is going to look leaner. That is your opinion, and it is pure conjecture that her body fat will not be mostly obscuring those attractive muscles.
      The 20lbs of muscle will likely have a better shape even if she is heavier. No, she may not look at all lean, but she will look less blobbish. It's putting shape under the fat. Not ideal, but better than no shape under the fat. I also can't imagine many women will gain 20 lbs of muscle and not also lose some fat.

      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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      • #48
        I'd rather look bulky than blobbish....

        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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        • #49
          I've been kind of out of the internet loop for a few days, but I just returned to see if I had gotten any responses. 5 pages? Wow, I'm sure that some of this is general internet bickering about something or other, but for all who provided links/ideas/insight, thank you. I'm going to actually read the thread now.

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          • #50
            Oh wow, so it seems I opened up a whole can (or maybe like 6 cans) of worms here. I guess I should clarify that what I would really love to see happen is for both of my friends to succeed with some kind of fitness plan. One of them is pretty overweight and the other is quite obese and I worry about her health. I've seen both of them try different fitness/diet plans but never stick to anything. I have found that heavy lifting is by the far the easiest fitness routine to stick to because it requires so little time and effort. (OK, it may take a lot of effort to push big weights, but it is over pretty quick. I have found that I never dread heavy lifting workouts the way I used to dread intense cardio or some type of crossfit/p90x type "ass-kicker" workout.)
            I'd love for my friends to reap some of the health, confidence, and energy benefits that come from getting stronger, and I think they're both in the mindset of not worrying too much about what their bodies look like, but valuing being strong and capable.
            That all being said, I don't think I really considered what it means for me (ya, a man) to go to them with grand plans and internet links to stories about women like Staci (impressive, gorgeous, inspiring, but probably not attainable by most). I hadn't really considered that they may react like Leida and think that I'm trying to tell them how to be. I guess I'm trying to say that I con't care about their looks, I just want them to be healthy and enjoy life as much as possible because I love them. I'm no Adonis myself, I love to drink and my 80/20 is more like 50/50 (and even when it was 90/10 I didn't look much different), but lifting big ass weights has allowed me to feel fit and vibrant even when my diet is lacking. I just want to share that joy.
            OK, sorry. rambling ends....now!

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            • #51
              Another site you could suggest (if your female friends do show an interest of course) is STRONG LOLA

              Without wanting to get involved in the bickering, I am female and abs are definitely on my wish list - not a full-on six-pack, but I'm working on getting some definition!

              Comment


              • #52
                I agree with what EKaterine is saying - it is a realistic look at the lifting, and women need to know it. The other realities are:

                -A woman adding 20 lbs of muscle... is a highly unrealistic proposition. While 20 lbs of muscle is no biggie for a men, adding that much muscle for a women without drugs is basically impossible, even if she was untrained!
                -when you are talking BF% vs definition it's not like different rules exist for men and women. Picture a man at 30% BF. I would never call him athletic, even if the male advantage make some of his muscle stand out (likely on his limbs). You would expect a gut and soft body, including men-boobs on someone with that level of fat. The SAME occurs in women. There will be a coat of fat that Ekaterine mentioned.
                -There is no law that makes you perceive a woman at the same level of BF% as a man as leaner because it's "fair" to expect the woman to have more BF
                -in the ideal world, I am sure most of women picture those extra % going right into boobs. Like that happens so often! Those extra % will go where it makes you look fatter - thighs sides, stomach and muffin top.
                -quite a few articles state now that lifting caloric afterburn does not happen in women the way it does in men.
                -Muscle that tend to grow better on women are lower body muscles in a quad and less in hamstring, and upper body changes very little compared to that. Having heavier leg is normally not a goal for women (men tend to want that more for 'chicken legs' syndrome)
                -there is a psychologically challenging thing with the weight lifting, because everyone gets wrapped up in the BIGGGER, BIGGER and BIGGEST lifts. So a woman in the gym will see every day the men that bicep curl what they deadlift. And the stalls will happen early and forever, and it will be far more pronounced failure than getting in 18 reps instead of 20 on the military press with 10# dumbbell in the racket of a Boot Camp class.

                Weight lifting solves no real advantages in comparison to cardio and light weights when it comes to aesthetics. It is neither shorter time and energy commitments, nor the results are visibly different in a normal woman ('cause you know, 3 lbs of muscle from barbell doesn't look very different than 2 lbs of muscle through a Boot Camp). Women gain misly amount of muscule no matter how they train compared to men.

                And, I am sorry to say it, but in my experience, there is no significant difference in the achievements of the women who are not athletically and genetically gifted in building their bods with heavy lifting vs cardio. In fact, the most successful bodies I see in the gym belong to cardio/light weights crowd, not heavy lifting crowd. I mean, there is this girl in the gym who lost her weight about the time I did. She does double cardio limit of 30 min on the machines every time she trains and some light stuff with DBs. I was lifting all that time. She sure never changed from her slender new self, while I went through endless cycles of fatter when I am not watching, and slimmer when I ground my teeth and starved. In the end I have a gut and better shoulders, and she overall looks like a goddess and I am certain did not bust her wrists every few weeks trying to bench bloody 95# like I did.

                Unlike Staci, most women stall at relatively low weights due to the lack of genetic talent. The muscle simply won't grow father and strength will not increase to promote further growth. Staci has very LOW BF%, and she always did after she finished her stint with the WW. Her gains were amazingly all muscle. She did not add 10 lbs of fat as soon as she started eating more. And she did add more than average # of muscle mass after dieting since her body is young and talented. We are talking a girl here that DL's more than 2x her body weight. That's a competition level performance not achievable by an Average Jane. An avregae Jane can also expect adding up to 75% of fat to 25% of muscle when gaining weight instead of vice versa, and NO, this fat will not magically disappear! It's the muscule that will once you start cutting....

                AGAIN, that's not to say that lifting is a bad thing to do. If it suits a woman, lifting is fun, and challenging. Give it a shot for a month or so, see if the beginner gains are exhilarating, but be prepared to face the reality if it turns out that you are not genetically talented. And if Zumba on Monday and Buts&Guts on Tuesday and Yogalites on Wednesday etc gives you a better sense of well-being, self-respect and a better body - screw the barbell.

                There is no magic pill, and that applies to the barbell as well.
                Last edited by Leida; 04-24-2013, 07:16 AM.
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                • #53
                  One of them is pretty overweight and the other is quite obese and I worry about her health. I've seen both of them try different fitness/diet plans but never stick to anything.
                  I think a lot depends on the person regarding what works. Heavy lifting/HIIT training has done WAY more for me than just cardio ever did. When I did the whole starve and cardio thing, all that happened was exactly nothing. Since I started Primal and stopped working out pretty much, I lost a ton of belly fat. Adding in HIIT plus some weights started leaning up my legs and arms, and now I am heavy lifting and within 3 weeks am seeing some great changes already- more belly fat gone and arms and legs tightening up.

                  For all I know, your friends may go to the gym, start lifting and see no results. But honestly, if cardio and calorie counting is not working for them, they owe it to themselves to try something new. I started Crossfit at a gym that focuses on strength training and one thing that is empowering is the diversity of exercises. Not gonna lie, I suck at the cardio portions. But I can back squat and dead lift and swing a kettle bell like a beast. It's empowering to find something at the gym you are good at.

                  The other thing is, muscle changes your body. I saw a friend this weekend and he was flabbergasted by how much weight I had lost. I last saw him in October. I've lost maybe 5 lbs since then. Muscle just manipulates your shape like nothing else. I dunno, maybe I am just super lucky in that where I put on muscle still keeps a feminine shape. Plus I can eat more now.

                  http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                  Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                  • #54
                    On the other hand, I lost all the weight through cardio and starvation and boot camps (light weights/high reps). I held more or less steady with heavy lifting and HIIT and starvation. No matter what I did, I gained fat right back once I stopped starving. The bottom-line for me is that the type of the weight and cardio training has nothing to do with body comp as long as it is present in some form, food intake does.
                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                      I think a lot depends on the person regarding what works. Heavy lifting/HIIT training has done WAY more for me than just cardio ever did. When I did the whole starve and cardio thing, all that happened was exactly nothing. Since I started Primal and stopped working out pretty much, I lost a ton of belly fat. Adding in HIIT plus some weights started leaning up my legs and arms, and now I am heavy lifting and within 3 weeks am seeing some great changes already- more belly fat gone and arms and legs tightening up.

                      For all I know, your friends may go to the gym, start lifting and see no results. But honestly, if cardio and calorie counting is not working for them, they owe it to themselves to try something new. I started Crossfit at a gym that focuses on strength training and one thing that is empowering is the diversity of exercises. Not gonna lie, I suck at the cardio portions. But I can back squat and dead lift and swing a kettle bell like a beast. It's empowering to find something at the gym you are good at.

                      The other thing is, muscle changes your body. I saw a friend this weekend and he was flabbergasted by how much weight I had lost. I last saw him in October. I've lost maybe 5 lbs since then. Muscle just manipulates your shape like nothing else. I dunno, maybe I am just super lucky in that where I put on muscle still keeps a feminine shape. Plus I can eat more now.
                      But now you're talking about losing weight. I've lost a huge amount of weight and I look great. But the discussion was centering around women who hang onto their body fat and pack on muscle, which a woman with a hearty appetite can do.

                      The thing is, a woman who adopts a healthy WOE, like this one, will lose fat as she gains muscle. So she will look lots better. Out in the CW gym, though, where women eat the CW weight-loss diet or even the SAD, they're not going to lose weight without starving. That's why so many women on treadmills and ellipticals have not changed their physical appearance since they started years earlier.

                      If we're talking about only women like that, well, that's what happens. She started obese and afterwards, she's still obese. She is still perceived as obese.

                      Just as when a young, always-athletic woman who is genetically gifted becomes a media darling and we are told, someone we should emulate. Nope, she's a special case too.
                      Last edited by eKatherine; 04-24-2013, 08:13 AM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by katiepotato View Post
                        Another site you could suggest (if your female friends do show an interest of course) is STRONG LOLA

                        Without wanting to get involved in the bickering, I am female and abs are definitely on my wish list - not a full-on six-pack, but I'm working on getting some definition!
                        I like my abs too. But for most women who are heavy abs aren't on their radar.

                        I disagree with the "30 day challenge" concept for women who are beginners. It makes it too easy to give up and quit when the going gets tough if the program sounds temporary when you start it.

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                        • #57
                          I feel like all things held constant- diet, and cardio, for most women adding in some lifting will be an overall net positive in reshaping their appearance, even if no fat loss occurs. Let's say the woman eats a pretty crappy diet, and because she lifts, she puts on 15 lbs of muscle and 5lbs of fat in a year- beats putting on 20 lbs of fat.

                          I'd actually like to see photos of women who started lifting weights and ended up looking even fatter. I don't think it is a silver bullet, but just have trouble fathoming how lifting weights could make you look worse than if you were sedentary or continued with an uneffective CW/Cardio plan.


                          I've known quite a few women that dramatically improved their appearance with weight training while eating the same diet they did while being fat queens of cardio.

                          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                            I disagree with the "30 day challenge" concept for women who are beginners. It makes it too easy to give up and quit when the going gets tough if the program sounds temporary when you start it.
                            Aha wrong link - should have been STRONG IS THE NEW SKINNY. The reason I mention this site is that Marsha wasn't tiny or in her 20's when she started weightlifting but has still made huge positive changes to her body. I completely agree that different women will see different results from the same form of exercise - but I also agree with Magnolia that women who look worse as a result of weight training must be in the minority.

                            There's no "one size fits all" for Primal eating, so why should there be for Primal exercise? Surely it's all about finding what works for the individual, with part of that being finding something that you enjoy so doesn't feel like a chore.

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                            • #59
                              I think a big part of finding fitness that you enjoy can inspire you to get your diet better and take charge of your health. Every day, I am excited to go to Crossfit in a way I have never been excited about running. And it inspires me to eat better so I can have energy for my WOD.

                              If someone is just slaving on a treadmill, by all means, encourage them to try new things at the gym. Even if Crossfit had no positive impact on my looks, it excites me, entertains me and gets me moving.

                              Being afraid of looking bulky is a dumbass reason not to exercise.

                              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                                Being afraid of looking bulky is a dumbass reason not to exercise.
                                Sure is. Not to mention certain kinds of "bulk" are plain awesome. Squat butt anyone?

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