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Rippetoe's New Article - Must Read If You Have Strength Questions

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  • #46
    Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
    What progression of bodyweight exercises should I use to achieve a 500 lb deadlift?
    What deadlifting progression do you suggest to achieve a maltese on gymnastics rings?

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    • #47
      Originally posted by quikky View Post
      Take two groups of people, group A, which have been training with barbells for a year, and group B which have been strength training with anything but barbells. Have each group perform real life tasks requiring high levels of strength. Which group do you predict will do better?
      What a silly question! It depends on a crapload of different parameters and when became so called "real life tasks" a objective measurment of "general strength"? What if the testing was lifting of stones and the non-barbell group trained almost exclusively on doing just that?
      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

      - Schopenhauer

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      • #48
        Originally posted by quikky View Post
        Take two groups of people, group A, which have been training with barbells for a year, and group B which have been strength training with anything but barbells. Have each group perform real life tasks requiring high levels of strength. Which group do you predict will do better?
        You know this is kinda the point. Are you "sufficiently strong". RM made a fine point on this.

        Two things... One: for me I've got a mentality of strength/weight ratio as the best way to determine who is stronger, but as a smaller guy 5'8 160, maybe this just helps me stroke my ego . Its also a leave over from when I competed in weight class sports. I suppose this is in part why I look at the gymnast and say I would much rather BE that guy than the powerlifter with a huge gut. Better strength/weight and likely better long term health.

        Two: A little anecdote. My Uncle was a big time lifter. We were doing a roof (part of why I mentioned such). My dad is an ironworker. Carrying shingles (75lbs/bag approximately).... they both only carried two bags at a time... but my dad out worked him by a mile. He could also outwork him moving furniture I'm sure. I only say this because you keep mentioning mundane tasks such as picking something up and putting it on a shelf.

        I basically lift weights because my job doesn't provide me the stress my body needs to maintain and build strength. If I was an ironworker though my ass wouldn't be bothering with the gym.
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-16-2013, 07:55 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
          What a silly question! It depends on a crapload of different parameters and when became so called "real life tasks" a objective measurment of "general strength"? What if the testing was lifting of stones and the non-barbell group trained almost exclusively on doing just that?
          The vast majority of people who want strength, want functional strength, i.e. they want it to apply to real life. So, if one type of training makes a person better at displaying strength in real life, that type of training is thus superior.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            You know this is kinda the point. Are you "sufficiently strong". RM made a fine point on this.

            Two things... One: for me I've got a mentality of strength/weight ratio as the best way to determine who is stronger, but as a smaller guy 5'8 160, maybe this just helps me stroke my ego . Its also a leave over from when I competed in weight class sports. I suppose this is in part why I look at the gymnast and say I would much rather BE that guy than the powerlifter with a huge gut. Better strength/weight and likely better long term health.
            The one who can produce more force is the one that's stronger, regardless of weight. Strength to weight ratio is good for knowing what kind of things you can achieve with your size. Someone who has a smaller skeleton, for example, will typically expect to be able to lift less than someone who has a large skeleton. A 300lb guy deadlifting 500lb is still stronger than a 200lb guy deadlifting 400lb.

            I'm not saying being a powerlifter is good for your health. However, being a competitive athlete is not about health and longevity, it's about winning. Guys who deadlift 1,000lb don't care about their cholesterol numbers, the phytates in their food, or their stomach size, they just care about deadlifting 1,000lb. Same for sprinters, swimmers, Olympic lifters, MMA fighters, NFL players, etc.

            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            I only say this because you keep mentioning mundane tasks such as picking something up and putting it on a shelf.
            You can come up with better more fun examples of real life strength. Perhaps lifting your significant other and carrying them upstairs with ease?

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Winterbike View Post
              What deadlifting progression do you suggest to achieve a maltese on gymnastics rings?
              A more proper comparison would be whether progression with barbells would be better preparation for training to do a maltese on rings than progression with bodyweight exercises. In other words, who is better prepared for learning advanced gymnastics: someone who can crank out a ton of push-ups, bodyweight squats, sit-ups, planks, etc, or someone who can press their bodyweight overhead and deadlift twice their bodyweight? Who has the better shoulder, back, core and leg strength base to work their way up to holding their body parallel to the ground on rings?

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              • #52
                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                The vast majority of people who want strength, want functional strength, i.e. they want it to apply to real life. So, if one type of training makes a person better at displaying strength in real life, that type of training is thus superior.
                Basically you get better to do what you are training for, and it's a lot of skill elements also involved in strength movements! But of course you will get a potential for a carry over effect when you grow relevant musclefibres by doing barbell training. So if you want to be the best car pusher do progressive overload on pushing cars, stone lifting? Do and progress by lifting bigger and bigger stones etc...
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by quikky View Post
                  A more proper comparison would be whether progression with barbells would be better preparation for training to do a maltese on rings than progression with bodyweight exercises. In other words, who is better prepared for learning advanced gymnastics: someone who can crank out a ton of push-ups, bodyweight squats, sit-ups, planks, etc, or someone who can press their bodyweight overhead and deadlift twice their bodyweight? Who has the better shoulder, back, core and leg strength base to work their way up to holding their body parallel to the ground on rings?
                  That's not a proper comparison. Your view of bodyweight exercises is too narrow. A push-up is the equivalent of deadlifting an empty bar. A full planche push-up could be considered equivalent to a 500+ deadlift (or maybe 600+). I maintain my point that if you increase the difficulty of your bodyweight workouts by increasing the technical difficulty of the moves, you can get CRAZY strong.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                    Basically you get better to do what you are training for, and it's a lot of skill elements also involved in strength movements! But of course you will get a potential for a carry over effect when you grow relevant musclefibres by doing barbell training. So if you want to be the best car pusher do progressive overload on pushing cars, stone lifting? Do and progress by lifting bigger and bigger stones etc...
                    I want to be strong for everything life can throw at me. What's the best way to do that?

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Winterbike View Post
                      That's not a proper comparison. Your view of bodyweight exercises is too narrow. A push-up is the equivalent of deadlifting an empty bar. A full planche push-up could be considered equivalent to a 500+ deadlift (or maybe 600+). I maintain my point that if you increase the difficulty of your bodyweight workouts by increasing the technical difficulty of the moves, you can get CRAZY strong.
                      Ok, describe a long-term training routine of bodyweight exercises that leads to continuous strength gains, especially with similar strength gains such as from a 500lb+ deadlift.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by quikky View Post
                        I want to be strong for everything life can throw at me. What's the best way to do that?
                        Find a form of training that is very versatile and optimal for growing all types of muscle fibres, and forget about only using 6-7 barbell movments as recommended by your hero Rippetoe, because that will not make you very prepared or versatile for everything that life may throw at you...
                        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                        - Schopenhauer

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          Find a form of training that is very versatile and optimal for growing all types of muscle fibres, and forget about only using 6-7 barbell movments as recommended by your hero Rippetoe, because that will not make you very prepared or versatile for everything that life may throw at you...
                          Strange, because I used to do a ton of different exercises years back, followed by some CrossFit, which is the definition of varied workouts, and yet after doing just 5 exercises and following Rippetoe's advice I'm stronger than I've ever been. This strength is not just in my deadlift numbers, but in things that used to be hard in real life which became trivial. So, no, I won't waste any more time on routines based on a failure to understand how strength is developed, such as what you're suggesting. You can go ahead though.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by quikky View Post
                            Strange, because I used to do a ton of different exercises years back, followed by some CrossFit, which is the definition of varied workouts, and yet after doing just 5 exercises and following Rippetoe's advice I'm stronger than I've ever been. This strength is not just in my deadlift numbers, but in things that used to be hard in real life which became trivial. So, no, I won't waste any more time on routines based on a failure to understand how strength is developed, such as what you're suggesting. You can go ahead though.
                            If you have grown relevant muscle fibres by doing what you are doing, then you get a potential for a carry over effect to other movements that involves the same muscles, yes...
                            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                            - Schopenhauer

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                              If you have grown relevant muscle fibres by doing what you are doing, then you get a potential for a carry over effect to other movements that involves the same muscles, yes...
                              Yeah, and since doing compound barbell lifts trains all the major muscle mass on the body, the strength gained has direct carryover to life.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by quikky View Post
                                Ok, describe a long-term training routine of bodyweight exercises that leads to continuous strength gains, especially with similar strength gains such as from a 500lb+ deadlift.
                                Wow, you're both dishonest and short-sighted. No need to argue here. Funny how you drank the kool-aid about crossfit (and failed), and are now doing the same with Rippetoe*. I hope some day you start sparring with a good judoka or a good BJJer, or get destroyed by a 120lbs chick in a climbing gym, and realize that ''strong'' is a very relative term.

                                *Not ripping on that guy, I love his work. He just suffers from the ''when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'' syndrome from time to time. He's very good at hitting nails, but might need a different perspective for other things.

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