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Rippetoe's New Article - Must Read If You Have Strength Questions

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  • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
    You missed the point of my argument.

    I'm not claiming the guy's clean.

    I'm claiming the guy's strong.
    Yes and where have I said otherwise? You are as usual trying to kick in an already vide open door! Compared to you and quikky he is probably far stronger than you are in any strength test that I can think of, but compared to other persons he may not be that strong, depending on whom and how we are going to test it. Maybe he sucks in front squat or something compared to a Olympic lifter and will be considered as “weak” among them? You are still carrying on with your outdated concept of “absolute strength” LOL…
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

    - Schopenhauer

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Yes and where have I said otherwise? You are as usual trying to kick in an already vide open door! Compared to you and quikky he is probably far stronger than you are in any strength test that I can think of, but compared to other persons he may not be that strong, depending on whom and how we are going to test it. Maybe he sucks in front squat or something compared to a Olympic lifter and will be considered as “weak” among them? You are still carrying on with your outdated concept of “absolute strength” LOL…
      So why do you consider Ed Coan strong? Why is he stronger than me? In my circles of gaming nerds, he will be considered weak due to his n00b thumbs.

      Furthermore, why do you think he will be better at all strength related tasks you can think of than me? Strength is specific, which in his case is barbell strength, so why would he be better at all strength tasks than me?
      Last edited by quikky; 04-18-2013, 01:00 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
        Yes and where have I said otherwise? You are as usual trying to kick in an already vide open door! Compared to you and quikky he is probably far stronger than you are in any strength test that I can think of, but compared to other persons he may not be that strong, depending on whom and how we are going to test it. Maybe he sucks in front squat or something compared to a Olympic lifter and will be considered as “weak” among them? You are still carrying on with your outdated concept of “absolute strength” LOL…
        You're being absurd. Nobody ever claimed that being strong in general would make you stronger in a particular feat than another athlete who trains for that particular feat.

        Here's a relevant question: Who would you bet your money on in a front-squatting contest, a top powerlifter who doesn't front squat or a top cyclist who doesn't front squat? Throw in a gymnast if you like. I know who my money rides on.
        The Champagne of Beards

        Comment


        • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
          You're being absurd. Nobody ever claimed that being strong in general would make you stronger in a particular feat than another athlete who trains for that particular feat.

          Here's a relevant question: Who would you bet your money on in a front-squatting contest, a top powerlifter who doesn't front squat or a top cyclist who doesn't front squat? Throw in a gymnast if you like. I know who my money rides on.
          How is it fair to compare a lifter and a cyclist in a lifting competition? if he's a "top" powerlifter, there's no way he isn't doing some form of squat which already puts him above an athlete whose sport requires him to be relatively lean and use their leg muscles for endurance rather than single rep like the powerlifter.

          If the winner would be decided via weight/strength ratio, the gymnast could give a lifter a run for their money but ultimately the lifter should win. Gymnasts are trained for upper body strength, having big legs would be counter productive for their sport (the leverage would be off as the vast majority of events are upper body dominant) However, I'm not versed enough in gymnastics lower body training but I do think they train some weighted movements sometimes so yeah, that would be more interesting than a powerlifter v. a cyclist.

          Assuming same weight, the gymnast might even win! Too bad we don't have top athletes as friends to settle these ridiculous disputes.
          Last edited by iniQuity; 04-18-2013, 01:15 PM.
          I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
            You're being absurd. Nobody ever claimed that being strong in general would make you stronger in a particular feat than another athlete who trains for that particular feat.

            Here's a relevant question: Who would you bet your money on in a front-squatting contest, a top powerlifter who doesn't front squat or a top cyclist who doesn't front squat? Throw in a gymnast if you like. I know who my money rides on.
            Did you read anything of what I said above? Of course a powerlifter will have the most optimal physiolgical adaptions i.e. more myofibrillar hyperthrophy in his thights and other bodyparts compared to a cyclist with mostly endurance adaptions. It's obvious that the powerlifter will outlift the cyclist in front squat if none of them have done it before, but except from that you are still wrong in your absolutist assumtions....
            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

            - Schopenhauer

            Comment


            • Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
              How is it fair to compare a lifter and a cyclist in a lifting competition? if he's a "top" powerlifter, there's no way he isn't doing some form of squat which already puts him above an athlete whose sport requires him to be relatively lean and use their leg muscles for endurance rather than single rep like the powerlifter.
              Gorbag's claim is that the powerlifters can't front squat as well as the olympic lifters, so aren't by definition, generally strong. Of course it's ridiculous.

              Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
              If the winner would be decided via weight/strength ratio, the gymnast could give a lifter a run for their money
              No. I don't think they could.

              Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
              Gymnasts are trained for upper body strength, having big legs would be counter productive for their sport (the leverage would be off as the vast majority of events are upper body dominant) However, I'm not versed enough in gymnastics lower body training but I do think they train some weighted movements sometimes so yeah, that would be more interesting than a powerlifter v. a cyclist.
              I disagree that having legs that are too strong is counterproductive for a gymnast.

              Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
              Assuming same weight, the gymnast might even win! Too bad we don't have top athletes as friends to settle these ridiculous disputes.
              I really doubt the gymnast has a chance in our hypothetical strength-off. Just like our powerlifter probably has no chance if we propose a handstand-off. The question is which skill is more widely and generally useful, being strong (which, incidentally, requires no hand-walking skill), or walking on your hands (which, incidentally does require a certain level of strength).
              The Champagne of Beards

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                Gorbag's claim is that the powerlifters can't front squat as well as the olympic lifters, so aren't by definition, generally strong. Of course it's ridiculous.

                As long as you were being facetious...


                No. I don't think they could.

                Gymnasts aren't required to squat for competitions, but they do have strong legs and have been documented to put up respectable numbers in squats/deadlifts so the potential for competition is there

                I disagree that having legs that are too strong is counterproductive for a gymnast.

                Notice I said "big," I agree they need strong legs mostly for tumbling and rebounding, but they're not trying to add mass there (upper body is where more mass is desired)

                I really doubt the gymnast has a chance in our hypothetical strength-off. Just like our powerlifter probably has no chance if we propose a handstand-off. The question is which skill is more widely and generally useful, being strong (which, incidentally, requires no hand-walking skill), or walking on your hands (which, incidentally does require a certain level of strength).
                A fairer competition would be jumping onto a platform from a low squat. Theoretically, the stronger you are the higher you can jump, right?

                Anyway, I don't think the powerlifter would crush the gymnast in your hypothetical, but the cards would be stacked in the lifter's favor ultimately.

                I mostly front squat myself actually, and it's finally getting past embarrassing but nowhere near good and way far from respectable. Humbling lift.
                I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                  Gorbag's claim is that the powerlifters can't front squat as well as the olympic lifters, so aren't by definition, generally strong. Of course it's ridiculous.
                  My point is that "strength" is relative, and terms like "generally strong" must be related to something! I might be considered as "generally strong" among my family or in my gym, but I am not sure that top class olympic weightlifters may consider me that way...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                    A fairer competition would be jumping onto a platform from a low squat. Theoretically, the stronger you are the higher you can jump, right?
                    No, the vertical jump is often used as the example of a genetic athletic skill that is relatively strength-independent. You can improve your vertical, but not by much, no matter how strong you get.

                    Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                    Anyway, I don't think the powerlifter would crush the gymnast in your hypothetical
                    You also don't think Strongman competitors train with a barbell

                    Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                    but the cards would be stacked in the lifter's favor ultimately.
                    Because he's stronger. That's my point.

                    Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                    I mostly front squat myself actually, and it's finally getting past embarrassing but nowhere near good and way far from respectable. Humbling lift.
                    The mechanics of the front squat impair the amount of weight that can be lifted. Why would you not want to involve more of the posterior chain and lift more weight? I bet getting stronger by doing back squats will improve your front squats at a higher rate than just front-squatting.
                    The Champagne of Beards

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                      My point is that "strength" is relative, and terms like "generally strong" must be related to something! I might be considered as "generally strong" among my family or in my gym, but I am not sure that top class olympic weightlifters may consider me that way...
                      Getting stronger with barbells makes you stronger with everything else - I.e. "general strength". It doesn't mean that the person who is the strongest with barbells will be the strongest with everything else, but it does mean they will indeed be strong with everything else. This is exactly why you know Ed Coan is stronger in every strength test than you and I.

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                      • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                        No, the vertical jump is often used as the example of a genetic athletic skill that is relatively strength-independent. You can improve your vertical, but not by much, no matter how strong you get.

                        fine

                        You also don't think Strongman competitors train with a barbell

                        2 shay



                        Because he's stronger. That's my point.

                        Ok, but on the inverse the gymnast would crush the powerlifter in probably all upper body movements, especially those where leverage is a factor, agreed? so then how are we defining "stronger?" Another one, do you think, given equal weights, a gymnast that can do full ROM handstand push ups would be able to put up more than a lifter in a military press? I can't say with certainty, but I do think that's a better example than a squat comp

                        The mechanics of the front squat impair the amount of weight that can be lifted. Why would you not want to involve more of the posterior chain and lift more weight? I bet getting stronger by doing back squats will improve your front squats at a higher rate than just front-squatting.
                        You're likely right, but I don't have anybody to coach me and I gather that the front squat is a stricter lift form wise - more self correcting so to speak. It's also easier to dump the bar should I fail. I know that you can back squat anything you can front squat (due to what you said) so I don't feel as though I'm missing out so to speak, just progressing in a different way. I also deadlit which as I understand it, involves the posterior chain quite nicely. I don't want to fuck around and switch things around too much, so for now I'll stay with the front squat. FWIW, I do snatch grip deadlifts, so I start from pretty low and it feels like a squat at the beginning of the movement. I'm definitely open to suggestions though, maybe I'll go back squats and regular deadlifts for a few weeks in the future.
                        I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by quikky View Post
                          Getting stronger with barbells makes you stronger with everything else - I.e. "general strength". It doesn't mean that the person who is the strongest with barbells will be the strongest with everything else, but it does mean they will indeed be strong with everything else. This is exactly why you know Ed Coan is stronger in every strength test than you and I.
                          Hmmm, I still remember the 280 pound power lifter that exclaimed "I am not big enough, I feel so weak" some twenty years ago when we tried to transform him into a competition Judoka! Very easy with judo, just grab the opponent, lift him up and throw him down on his back and you win, less than 10 seconds to finish, very good idea with a powerlifting background, a professor friend tried to convince me! And we gave it a try for more than three f**king months, two very strong and fairly motivated power lifters, one 280 and the other 255 pound. Unfortunately they did not have the right kind of strength though, very little relevant carryover to judo, and we finally gave it up…
                          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                          - Schopenhauer

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            Hmmm, I still remember the 280 pound power lifter that exclaimed "I am not big enough, I feel so weak" some twenty years ago when we tried to transform him into a competition Judoka! Very easy with judo, just grab the opponent, lift him up and throw him down on his back and you win, less than 10 seconds to finish, very good idea with a powerlifting background, a professor friend tried to convince me! And we gave it a try for more than three f**king months, two very strong and fairly motivated power lifters, one 280 and the other 255 pound. Unfortunately they did not have the right kind of strength though, very little relevant carryover to judo, and we finally gave it up…
                            So practitioners of Judo were better at Judo than people new to Judo? Martial arts involve many other things besides strength. That said, were the powerlifters strength worse than the other 280lb persons you've tested?

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                            • My position is that what is usually considered as "strength" is complex and it's A LOT of skill and technique involved even in the most basic lifts, and yes you get a carryover from the physical adaptions from all kind of strength training that build relevant muscle fibers, from barbells, dumbbells, sandbags, pullups, machines etc.
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

                              Comment


                              • Gorbag: Who would win a judo match between two extreme novices, a strong person, or a weak one? I've been thrown by skilled judoka who are by any measure weaker than myself.

                                IniQuity: The press is no longer a contested lift, but many powerlifters train that lift as well as the bench press. I don't think your gymnasts (while they are impressive specimens) can compare in raw upper body strength. Do you think it's easier to teach a strong person to do a planche or a weak person to press their bodyweight overhead? That's the relevant question here.
                                The Champagne of Beards

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