Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lyle McDonald's "Getting Rid of Stubborn Body Fat" protocol...

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Lyle McDonald's "Getting Rid of Stubborn Body Fat" protocol...

    Copied from a different forum:

    Originally Posted by Lyle McDonald
    Getting Rid of Stubborn Bodyfat- by Lyle McDonald

    Without going into the brutally long and complicated mental computations that led me to this (and I'm still working on the overall scheme), here's my current thoughts on how to approach it.

    First and foremost, this is one of the places where morning/pre-breakfast cardio is probably crucially important.

    An hour or two before cardio, take 200 mg caffeine with 1-3 grams of L-tyrosine (NO ephedrine).

    There are two segments to the cardio:

    - The first segment is for mobilization, to get those stubborn fatty acids out of the fat cell.
    - The second segment is the oxidation part, to burn them off in the muscle.

    For the first segment of the cardio, use a machine that you don't normally use. So if you normally do the treadmill, do the first segment on the stairmaster or bike or something. Just make it different.

    First segment:
    warmup: 3-5 minutes
    go hard: 5-10 minutes. I mean hard, as hard as you can stand for the entire time. This will NOT be fun on lowered blood glucose. I've considered putting intervals here but haven't found the data I need to make up my mind. If you do intervals, go something like 5X1' all out with a 1' break (10' total intervals)

    Rest 5', just sit on your butt, drink water, try not to puke.

    Go to your normal cardio machine. Do at least 30 minutes at moderate/high moderate intensity (below lactate threshold but decent intensity). I'd say 45' maximum here but I'm still making up my mind and looking at data.

    Go home, and wait and hour before having a small protein meal (25-50 grams or so). No dietary fat. 2-3 hours later, go back to normal diet eating. Your daily calories shouldn't be any different than they were already, they are just distributed differently, you only have 100-200 immediately after cardio, and then the rest afterwards.

    I'd do that maybe 3 days per week to start, and see what happens.

    Why this works

    To get stubborn fat mobilized, you have to overcome a fairly severe resistance in terms of both blood flow and lipolysis, this requires very high concentrations of catecholamines (adrenaline/noradrenaline). Sadly, jacking up levels of catecholamines (necessary for mobilization) limits burning in the muscle which is why you follow the high intensity with low intensity.

    Basically, you jack up levels to get the fat mobilized, and then let them fall so that the fatty acid can be burned in the muscle.

    I have a study showing that Ephedrine before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that's the reason for avoiding it. Studies also show a lower than normal catecholamine response as people adapt to a given type of cardio; doing a different machine will result in a higher catecholamine response than you'd other wise get.


    The bigger problem with stubborn fat has to do with:

    - Blood flow to the fat cells: which is typically very low, odds are your butt is cold to the touch compared to other areas of your body
    - It's harder to mobilize: both because of impaired blood flow, and because of adrenoceptor issues.

    Oral yohimbe (0.2 mg/kg) can be effective when used over the long term. Don't take it within 3-4 hours of taking ephedrine, and start with a half-dose to assess tolerance (some people get really freaky responses from it). IF you can find pharmaceutical yohimbine, it's far far better than the herbal version (and most of the herbal versions are crap, the only one I trust is Twinlab Yohimbe Fuel).

    Taking the yohimbe with caffeine prior to morning cardio does seem to help with very stubborn fat.
    This is supposedly when you're already at pretty low BF% but there are still some areas which you seem to be unable to lose.

    I know the consensus for PBers is no chronic cardio, but what do you all make of this? It sounds like something meant to be used to get ready for an event if you're an athlete/model. I plan on toying with it in a few months when I've shed more BF, if I feel I have any stubborn fat, or if I feel I need to get rid of it. I don't think I'll be so obsessed with having minimal BF.

    I'm interested in what you guys make of the science behind it, and what the crap is Yohimbe?
    Does anybody here take or have taken caffeine pills? In my last workout I did Power to the People! (deadlift 2x5, chest press 2x5) and 2xF of pull-ups then I hit the treadmill which I haven't done since starting the PB. I did 20 minutes of 1 min walk - 1 min jog at increasing intervals, starting at 6mph and ending at 10mph (.5 increase every minute, but did 10mph for the last 2mins) and felt good. I was going to do 20-30mins of a steady interval right after, around 8mph or so but I didn't plan my time right and was going to be running late for work. I am looking to start putting in some "traditional" cardio time to see if I can speed up the fat loss a bit. I'll probably only do this (the increasing interval jog/walk thing) once a week, since I will still be sprinting 2x. Does anybody think it would be too much? I would do Tabatas but I figure these longer sessions will have a better effect on endurance and stamina, based on CW standars... Also, in the "first segment" of Lyle's cardio where he says to go HARD for 5-10 minutes, could one do a tabata treadmill/bike routine there? or two? with like a 2 minute rest in between, that would be 10 minutes.

    Lastly, what do you make of Lyle's protocol, is it something you would try or would concerns of high cortisol levels be something you'd want to avoid? (I'm assuming that protocol would result in higher cortisol, but have no evidence) How sustainable do you think it is? It doesn't sound too demanding, I feel I've already done similar routines in the past, but the things he asks you to take make it different...
    I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

  • #2
    Some thoughts

    I did a heavy cut based on HIIT about three months ago. This format sounds pretty standard and will probably work. That being said, it is very difficult to retain your max strength if this become a regular part of your routine. I know I lost about 15% off of all of my major lifts while losing 20lbs, so it is definitely a trade-off. Some common supplements to couple with this approach are:

    Caffeine: increases energy on an empty stomach,
    L-Leucine: helps preserve muscle on an empty stomach
    L-Carnosine: helps fat mobilization/ lipolysis
    Yohimbe: sounds like you know about this

    Definitely get some protein in your system right when you are done if you want to retain as much strength as possible. Good luck!

    Comment


    • #3
      Lyle McDonald is someone who knows what he is talking about, and I value what he has to say. I know a lot of complete gym rat friends followed is ultimate diet 2.0 with great success, i have thought about it doing it until I went primal, but have considered trying it primal style for a while! Try it I think it would work for helping losing some fat!

      Though be careful with those caffeine pills! you do not want to become slave to them! Before i was pb i could not make it through out the day with literally at least one full (12 cups) pot of coffee.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yeah taking caffeine is not something I think I want to do. I put half a teaspoon of coffee in my loose-leaf black tea in the mornings I workout. I'm not sure if I "feel it" but I workout just fine.

        I don't think I'll do this protocol unless I feel I absolutely have to, and like I said before, I don't really think I will want to. I might try it just to see how tough it is.

        I want to abstain from taking anything if I don't have to, even whey protein, I just want to eat all I need, I don't think that's a naive approach.
        I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

        Comment


        • #5
          "I have a study showing that Ephedrine before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that's the reason for avoiding it."

          Umm...'cause the heart attack it will give you isn't a good enough reason to avoid the stuff? Blech...I'm skeptical of any plan that includes stimulant supplements.

          Comment


          • #6
            Lyle knows exactly what he is talking about, and his methods DO work if done CORRECTLY (Read: not for rebels). I've done his routines before, and also know people who have, once again, do it right and you're fine. Also, don't just do his routines based off internet reading, I would actually buy his book and read.

            As far as caffeine and stimulants go... so what? Everyone has different goals and desires in life. Some people would rather have sub 10 percent BF then live 100 years. Ephedrine, just like steroids, are so much better then how the FDA and other organizations portray them.

            They can't make enough money off of them, and on top of that, some people just don't know how to follow protocol and think MORE IS BETTER. Not always the case.
            sigpic
            In Pursuit of Healthiness, Only to Achieve Happiness!: www.livingnotsurviving.com

            Comment


            • #7
              sounds good, however I would be concerned about HIIT affecting my weight lifting recovery (IF and Lean Gains Protocol - 3x per week RPT)

              Martin recommends moderate intensity cardio to prevent muscle recovery from lift days

              Perhaps its worth it if you are willing to sacrifice some muscle to get really lean?

              Comment


              • #8
                Good stuff, fasted morning cardio without the Yohimbe, but with a couple of cups strong black coffee if you can stomach it! Personally I do warm-ups and 5-6 high intensity hillsprints for 30 seconds each and with 30 minutes of moderate/low intensity fartslek and some walking to finish. I do not eat anything before around 2 PM though...
                Last edited by Gorbag; 09-05-2013, 01:51 PM.
                "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                - Schopenhauer

                Comment


                • #9
                  I went from vegan to hardline paleo with Lyle Mc's UD 2.0 in the span of one Christmas. He was my original motivator along with Sisson, so I owe him big time.

                  I am not a fan of the Yohimbe though. Makes me pretty shaky, and yes, probably not good for you adrenal-wise. I have done his work for cutting, then Berkham's Leangains to maintain....LG will get you to the same place, just takes a little longer. Lyle's regimens are time-consuming and nasty, but they WORK
                  "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't think it would work faster or slower than any other typical cutting routine. It's all about the calories. If you're in a calorie deficit, the fat will come off. While the idea of that high intensity stuff looks cute on paper, the rules actually still stay the same. It doesn't mean it won't work, it just means that it isn't going to work any different than your typical bodybuilding cutting routine that includes 45 minutes of aerobics.

                    One thing I must say. When you get into the theory, people start talking about hormones and all, but the rules stay the same. And with that in mind, you'd realize that everything else is just overcomplicating things and distracting you from what really works. And what works is simply cutting calories and/or exercising more in order to create a deficit.

                    My results over the years have gone right along with this. I lost 10-20 lbs per year until I reached and maintained a total of 50 lbs lost. What I realized every step of the way is that it was always the same. Often I would question what was needed in order to get to the next level of leanness, thinking it had to be complicated or that I had to do something special, but it was never the truth. When I went back to what was tried and true, it was always the same every time. Cut calories and the fat comes off. It really is that simple.

                    As for the caffeine and yohimbe, I don't like it. It makes me jittery. And I don't wish that on anyone.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ripped View Post
                      Cut calories and the fat comes off. It really is that simple.
                      Yes, I agree with your main points, but stubborn body fat can be a bit tricky for many people, and this is a protocol meant to save muscles while stripping off the last pound(s) of fat...
                      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                      - Schopenhauer

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        stubborn body fat can be a bit tricky for many people
                        It surely is tricky if you are confused about what to do. And it's easy to be confused these days because of all the dogma that's put out there. The more confused someone is about what to do, the more tricky it's going to be, because they're attention will go away from what is tried and true and more towards nonsensical things that don't even work.

                        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        this is a protocol meant to save muscles while stripping off the last pound(s) of fat...
                        Studies have shown that regular weight lifting preserves muscle mass while in a calorie deficit.

                        With that being said, it doesn't matter if you have 50 lbs of extra fat on you or 5 lbs of extra fat on you, the requirements for fat loss in each case are still going to be the same.

                        What do you think will work better for muscle preservation during a calorie deficit? Lifting weights as heavy as possible? Or spending an our on the treadmill? Guess what? Studies actually show that fat loss is greater with athletes who weight train as opposed to doing aerobics.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If you're having to suffer all that to lose some small amount of fat...
                          -You probably don't need to lose it.
                          -You're putting vanity before health.
                          -It WILL come back as soon as it can.

                          This lifestyle is primarily about health, not about getting that 'beach body' in any way possible.
                          --
                          Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

                          --
                          I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
                          I'd apologize, but...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ripped View Post
                            Studies have shown that regular weight lifting preserves muscle mass while in a calorie deficit.

                            With that being said, it doesn't matter if you have 50 lbs of extra fat on you or 5 lbs of extra fat on you, the requirements for fat loss in each case are still going to be the same.

                            What do you think will work better for muscle preservation during a calorie deficit? Lifting weights as heavy as possible? Or spending an our on the treadmill? Guess what? Studies actually show that fat loss is greater with athletes who weight train as opposed to doing aerobics.
                            Well sprinting or high intensity cardio followed by steady state cardio is very effective if used right, and you are plain wrong that the last 5 pound of fat comes off as easy as when you are starting out with 50 pound surplus fat. When getting lean with little fat the body will usually prefer to get energy from muscles/organs and keep the stubborn fat. Lifting weights is not always enough for most people when leaning out, thats my experience anyway...
                            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                            - Schopenhauer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                              Well sprinting or high intensity cardio followed by steady state cardio is very effective if used right, and you are plain wrong that the last 5 pound of fat comes off as easy as when you are starting out with 50 pound surplus fat. When getting lean with little fat the body will usually prefer to get energy from muscles/organs and keep the stubborn fat. Lifting weights is not always enough for most people when leaning out, thats my experience anyway...
                              How lean have you gotten?

                              The hardest part for me has simply been mental. I have gotten down to say 8% and it takes a lot of effort to get there. When I say that, I just mean diet wise. I know I can take it further, but I just don't like to do what would be required to get there. It takes dedication. When you know that, it's simply a matter of do or don't.

                              As for the difference in say 5 lbs compared to 50 lbs, the only real difference that I am aware of is the fact that your metabolism is higher when you are fatter, because fat requires energy. So for that reason, you can lose weight with higher calories when you already have more fat. The lighter weight you are, the lower your metabolism, and the lower your metabolism the lower your calories have to be in order to lose weight. And that just plain old sucks!!!

                              As for your comments about the body going for muscle instead, I've never seen any study that would prove it. A lot of people say it. There is a lot of fear about muscle loss. But it's the similar dogma such as the requirement for eating 6 small meals per day, eating tons of protein, etc.. It's all dogma because once you look at the actual studies, you find that they are telling a different story.

                              In rusty moore's writings, he discusses a military experiment that was done where the subjects were put on severe calorie restriction as well as rigorous training and burning up A LOT of calories for I think 8 weeks if I recall correctly. Of all the subjects, the only ones that lost muscle were the ones that started the experiment at around 5%, but even for them it took a handful of weeks before such occurred. In other words, their bodies didn't go after the muscle until all of their storage (not essential) fat was gone.

                              So what does all that mean? Unless you've already got an incredible six pack, you really have no worries for muscle loss, as long as you lift weights regularly. And in such a case, where do you really have room for improvement anyways?

                              Also realize that there is a lot that goes on with glycogen. If you cut calories and exercise a lot, your glycogen stores will be low, even if you didn't lose any muscle at all. Since glycogen gets stored in the muscles, less glycogen makes the muscles flat and smaller, at least temporarily. The result is an appearance of muscle loss with different testing methods such as calipers, bioelectrical impedance, and underwater weighing. This would clearly result in a false impression of muscle loss. Another problem that occurs with lowered glycogen is lowered energy levels, that which would also clearly give a false impression of strength and muscle loss, meanwhile the reality is that such was only temporary strength loss due to lack of energy.

                              Either way, if someone doesn't know that, all this extra theory only serves to keep people confused and guessing, looking for the next product or book. Lift weights to be big and strong. Cut calories and/or increase exercise to get the fat to go away. Such has always worked and it always will. And the actual studies support that, not the dogma that's typically touted.
                              Last edited by Ripped; 09-07-2013, 09:08 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X