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  • #31
    Originally posted by Greenbeast View Post
    ok lets posit a new hypothetical situation:
    in any given week you go to the gym and lift 3 times.

    you life XXXlb on day one, what do you do the other two sessions, lift the same again? what for?
    if the body isn't pushed it won't adapt. if it doesn't need to lift anymore that XXXlb it won't grow the muscle. And if you can already lift it on day one, why go back until your body is stronger, which it sure as hell won't be in 2 days rest.

    honestly once a month is more than enough, once i hit my peak (given my genetic expression) i will lift the same but much less often, just to maintain tht level of strength. or i could pick any point in between now and then and just hit the gym once every few months
    This scenario is also pointless as it does not represent a valid reflection of what one should aim to do in the gym. Do us a favour and have a quick read through the starting strength wiki posted earlier in the thread. It is a linear progression where new lifters aim to add weight every time they go to the gym, 3 times a week. Once lifters plateau there are a couple of mechanisms to break the plateau. Once these mechanisms fail to succeed, a more advanced program with longer between body part workouts is recommended i.e. weekly weight increases.

    My point - you shouldn't aim to lift the same amount each time you go to the gym.

    Your proposal (squats and pull-downs) doesn't even incorporate all major muscle groups (no chest or shoulders, limited lower back).
    Last edited by maclrc; 03-18-2013, 10:54 AM.

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    • #32
      this is what i'm training on:
      Powertec Squat/Calf Raise

      i was bigger when i lifted 220kg, it was a few years back. Just started training again.

      It's entirely your right to call BS on it, i don't know if i've got any way of proving it. But i guess i don't really need to

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      • #33
        Originally posted by maclrc View Post
        This scenario is also pointless as it does not represent a valid reflection of what one should aim to do in the gym. Do us a favour and have a quick read through the starting strength wiki posted earlier in the thread. It is a linear progression where new lifters aim to add weight every time they go to the gym, 3 times a week. Once lifters plateau there are a couple of mechanisms to break the plateau. Once these mechanisms fail to succeed, a more advanced program with longer between body part workouts is recommended i.e. weekly weight increases.
        yeah sorry i haven't actually read the SS stuff, i'll have a look now, but if gains can be made on less training, why would i (or anyone) want to to do more?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Greenbeast View Post
          this is what i'm training on:
          Powertec Squat/Calf Raise

          i was bigger when i lifted 220kg, it was a few years back. Just started training again.

          It's entirely your right to call BS on it, i don't know if i've got any way of proving it. But i guess i don't really need to
          Yeah, never really seen a machine like that before, but looks like it would be somewhere between a leg press and real squat in terms of difficulty i.e. harder to "cheat" like on a leg press, but without the full stabilisation required when squatting with a BB. I've no real idea what 220kg on that would translate into on a BB, but I reckon between 120-160kg.

          I'm not going to say it isn't possible for you to make gains by following your programme. My experience and that of others simply suggests that many will not be able to make gains on it and there are almost certainly more efficient ways to do so. It is all a bit cake and eat it stuff. 12 workouts a year, 2 exercises a workout, great gains...hmmmm

          But, YMMV as they say, so good luck to you.

          OP - try out starting strength

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Greenbeast View Post
            yeah sorry i haven't actually read the SS stuff, i'll have a look now, but if gains can be made on less training, why would i (or anyone) want to to do more?
            theoretically speaking, gains can be made with minimal training. yes. but they are minimal gains. minimal strength development. minimal muscular development. don't confuse the minimal newb gains of your lifestyle change with the potential that you could reach by following a tried and true method. i'm sure that there are humans somewhere on earth who may be able to see moderate gains on one balls to the wall workout per month. theoretically that is possible. but not the average joe working out on a calf raise machine. its just not happening the way you are trying to tell us it is.

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            • #36
              yeah it's a great bit of kit, allows you to lift a lot of weight without so much worry about stability and safety, admittedly i guess the core doesn't have the chance to adapt and provide the stability but i'd much rather have the security.
              There's no assist on it and the weight is directly above the shoulders, so i don't see why you'd have to estimate down .

              Like i said i trained this way before, so it's not new to me, i just had a 2 year break of lifting when the wife left me.
              I wasn't primal back then but that should make the situation better not worse, i;m eating better, i'm in better shape to begin with.

              I'm not an internet troll trying to BS everyone

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              • #37
                Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                theoretically speaking, gains can be made with minimal training. yes. but they are minimal gains. minimal strength development. minimal muscular development.
                what would you consider good gains to make over the period of a month then? Out of interest.

                I will pop back and post updates as the months pass if you like

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Greenbeast View Post
                  what would you consider good gains to make over the period of a month then? Out of interest.

                  I will pop back and post updates as the months pass if you like
                  taken directly from the SS wiki:
                  "For young males that weigh between 150-200 lbs., deadlifts can move up 15-20 lbs. per workout, squats 10-15 lbs., with continued steady progress for 3-4 weeks before slowing down to half that rate. Bench presses, presses, and cleans can move up 5-10 lbs. per workout, with progress on these exercises slowing down to 2.5-5 lbs. per workout after only 2-3 weeks. Young women make progress on the squat and the deadlift at about the same rate, adjusted for bodyweight, but much slower on the press, the bench press, cleans, and assistance exercises."

                  and the basic plan is as follows:


                  Workout A
                  3x5 Squat
                  3x5 Bench Press
                  1x5 Deadlift

                  Workout B
                  3x5 Squat
                  3x5 Press
                  5x3 Power Cleans

                  Workouts A and B alternate on 3 non-consecutive days per week.

                  so, with some experience with lifting, or someone who is just over a novice, i'd say that would qualify in the "gains coming at half that rate" part. so increasing a squat 10kg per month would be an absolute minimal gain according to Ripp. adding that to the fact that you aren't actually squatting, but using a lever-based machine, the added 10kg per month is only a fraction of that actual 10kg of added plates. truth be told, you're not really making much of a strength gain. i'm guessing that the actual amount of muscle growth is slim to none as well. i hate to be the bearer of bad news

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by maclrc View Post
                    This varies from person to person.
                    Agreed. I train at lunch time when I am at home and usually at night when I am on the road (which is about 50-60% of the time). I *prefer* training at lunch because I can IF until then, train and then eat like a king for a few hours. Training after IF'ing until 6 or 7 PM is harder and I usually eat lunch that day so I don't get all light headed.

                    So, I don't think it matters that much. There have been "studies" done that have shown, iirc, 3 hours and 11 hours after waking are the best times for muscle development because of insulin response. However, I think they were done with trainees that were eating 6-8 times per day and following your typical body builder type of diet. But again, that falls into the over thinking it category and most people just need to start lifting and then fuck with all the parameters to dial stuff in. Getting started seems to be the hardest part for most people.
                    People too weak to follow their own dreams will always try to discourage others.

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                    • #40
                      To the OP:

                      Seriously, don't overthink this. People who say "I'm kinda fat and don't really lift weights, what should I do?" just need to eat clean and lift some weights. Add in some other movement during the week. Done and done. Pick a program and DO IT, since you said in the OP that you just kinda fart around on everything workout related, usually. After several months reevaluate.

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                      • #41
                        I am also an advocate of long rest periods between lifts. Honestly, I think a month isnt long enough. I did my first workout session when I was 12 years old. I logged everything I did. My max bench was 90 lbs back then. I am going for my 2nd training session today (25 years old, almost 26). I am hoping to see some good gains on my BP. My goal is to max out at at least 100. Since benching 12 years ago I havent done much. I played high level hockey, thats about it. I still expect that I can lift more than I could when I was 12 though, as I have given my pecks a long time to heal.

                        Ill report back with my findings.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by UTfootball747 View Post
                          Along those lines, do you have any opinion as to whether or not it matters when I'm lifting (as in time of day)? I prefer to workout early morning before I go to work. This is fine for cardio, though I can see how it might be detrimental to strength training (stiff muscles, I won't have eaten anything, and I really don't have the opportunity to immediately follow up the workout with a protein shake or similar).
                          like others have said, it definitely varies person to person. i can do light cardio in the morning, but i don't have the energy or strength to lift heavy or do HIT then. can't do stuff like that before 10am or so. so i certainly can't do it at 5am. i have always been this way.

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                          • #43
                            why is the user not bearing the full force of that weight? the weight is not being supported by the lever.

                            you're not the bearer of bad news, i'm happy that i can make at least 10kg gains by training once a month, who wants to be in the gym 12 times a month!?

                            i assume the SS is not to failure, so anyone starting out will be underlifting, so of course they'll jump a few lb/kg each session, the weight they're lifting after 2, 3, 4 weeks could have been done in the first week
                            Last edited by Greenbeast; 03-18-2013, 12:05 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Greenbeast View Post
                              why is the user not bearing the full force of that weight? the weight is not being supported by the lever.

                              you're not the bearer of bad news, i'm happy that i can make at least 10kg gains by training once a month, who wants to be in the gym 12 times a month!?

                              i assume the SS is not to failure, so anyone starting out will be underlifting, so of course they'll just a few lb/kg each session, the weight they're lifting after 2, 3, 4 weeks could have been done in the first week
                              you're obviously entitled to your opinions. but 1-you're not going to shoot holes in starting strength, and 2-you clearly aren't someone who likes exercise or is interested in any real strength gains. to each their own. your particular experience is certainly not going to be helpful to the OP.

                              to counter your question, why would someone want to take 1 year to make the gains that could be made in 2 months?

                              lever+not a normal range of motion=not doing all the work. you aren't actually supporting the entire weight and you aren't carrying that weight through a full range of motion
                              Last edited by not on the rug; 03-19-2013, 04:49 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
                                To the OP:

                                Seriously, don't overthink this. People who say "I'm kinda fat and don't really lift weights, what should I do?" just need to eat clean and lift some weights. Add in some other movement during the week. Done and done. Pick a program and DO IT, since you said in the OP that you just kinda fart around on everything workout related, usually. After several months reevaluate.
                                I actually am pretty consistent when doing it (at least in showing up and putting in 45 min to an hour of lifting), though I might change routines every few months when I'm getting bored and not seeing results. When I stopped it was completely and for way too long, but I was at it for a couple years or so prior to. I guess I've always felt that I wasn't really making great progress because I didn't commit to building muscle over slimming down, so I was probably not eating enough.

                                Or maybe I'm just overthinking it.

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