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  • #46
    Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
    But I thought insulin spiking is what we are trying to avoid with paleolithic eating?
    No, chronically elevated levels of insulin are what we want to avoid. Insulin is the doorman that lets nutrients into the cells, both muscle and fat cells. So when we want to get nutrients into the muscle cells, insulin is key. When we want to mobilize the fats from our adipose tissue, we want insulin to lay low.

    Insulin is vital. It's not the enemy. The problem is when we lose the ability to respond to insulin's message.
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #47
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      No, chronically elevated levels of insulin are what we want to avoid. Insulin is the doorman that lets nutrients into the cells, both muscle and fat cells. So when we want to get nutrients into the muscle cells, insulin is key. When we want to mobilize the fats from our adipose tissue, we want insulin to lay low.

      Insulin is vital. It's not the enemy. The problem is when we lose the ability to respond to insulin's message.
      exactly

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      • #48
        Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
        But whenever I've added sweet potatoes I've added mass, but around the mid-section.
        when you add the sweet potatoes, you are taking in excess calories, so are you eating less protein or fat to counter the calorie increase? because added calories will equal weight gain. don't forget about the butter, etc that you might add to the sweet potatoes as well.

        if you eat sweet potatoes one day and feel soft in the mid-section the next day, thats just water retention. not the end of the world.

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        • #49
          Okay, I am back. I just got back from spring break, so I took a full week off of lifting and intense eating. However, I did stuff my face with abundant amounts of seafood, and was able to maintain my weight despite barely eating during the day but gorging for dinner. Anyway, I am ready to begin my second attempt at weight gain with a new perspective: more carbs.

          I saw the interesting thread going on right now about rice and potatoes, and love the debate. I've recently been reading The Perfect Health Diet, and it seems to make a lot of sense. Perhaps not rice, but why wouldn't Grok have eaten all the potatoes and starchy tubers he could find? Do you think he was worried about the carbohydrates? Rhetorical question...but really, I am making the appropriate connections now, and am convinced that eating more rice, potatoes, etc. will help me gain the weight I want. I think I am going to opt for the traditional bulk and cut method.

          Back to lifting...call me crazy, but I decided to drop all the way down to 155lbs on squat and bench, and 185 lbs on DL (on the classic SS routine) and work my way back up from there. I really want to work on form and I am hoping that starting here will prevent me from stalling and help me break past the 210lb squat and bench plateau I hit circa two weeks ago. Plus, I am hella sore from yesterday despite this heavily reduced weight, though this is no surprise given I hadn't worked out in over 10 days.

          I really think this approach is going to work much better. It will be easier, too. Here's a question, though. For those of you that are die-hard CI/CO proponents, how can you explain my lack of weight gain despite averaging 3500-5000 calories (65%fat, 15%carbs) for at least two months? I was working out ~1.5 hours a week, doing weight-lifting alone, no HIIT or met-con workouts, just SS lifting. I am not asking because I do not believe in CI/CO and want to belittle you, I am not sure where I lie on the issue yet myself, but my n=1 is telling me that it doesn't hold totally true, and I would like to hear what you guys have to say about that?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
            No, chronically elevated levels of insulin are what we want to avoid. Insulin is the doorman that lets nutrients into the cells, both muscle and fat cells. So when we want to get nutrients into the muscle cells, insulin is key. When we want to mobilize the fats from our adipose tissue, we want insulin to lay low.

            Insulin is vital. It's not the enemy. The problem is when we lose the ability to respond to insulin's message.
            Yeah, but aren't a lot of us screwed up from living for decades in the United States of Sugar?

            I'm pretty scientific about my self-experiments (periodically logging exact calories, weighing to the gram, cook everything at home, use gym body analyzer). The interesting thing about paleo is that I can go 3000 calories on heavy lifting days, with carbs under 40g and sugar under 15g...and not gain fat weight (2200 is around my maintenance for non-workout days). Mix is 70 fat / 25 pro / 5 carb (from vegi). Right now I'm in keto-lifting mode, eating lots fat/protein, gaining muscle, body fat slightly decreasing, weight more or less neutral.

            But if I even go 2500 on lifting days with 100-150g carbs (from adding sweet potatoes or brown rice) the waist fat starts. And then it just goes and goes. I've been down that road. The body analyzer at the gym confirms it is fat increase along with muscle increase. It is possible I could add MORE muscle with carbs, don't know for sure, just not a fan of the strong but high body fat look that a lot of heavy lifting guys have.

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            • #51
              Kimchi, how fast are you able to gain muscle? I ate 4,000 calories per day for around two months on a 65% fat, 15% carb diet and couldn't put on even a pound of weight. In fact, I went from 175 to 172.

              However, now my macro breakdown is around 50:25:25. I can already tell that I am putting on weight. I am back up to 175 already. Yes, I have noticed more stomach fat. My upper abs are still defined, but the lower ones are slowly being covered up. I don't mind this, though, if it's going to lead to substantial strength gains. Now that I know how to easily get rid of this fat when I begin cutting after a few months of bulking, it almost makes me laugh to see myself get a little fat .

              I am no longer eating 4500-5000 on my training days. I am closer to 4000 on training days and 3500 on my off days. I know that someone suggested eating the same calories on rest days, but I chose to reduce it by 500 for financial reasons. Good food is expensive! Anyway, I have noticed weight gain already, nonetheless.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                Yeah, but aren't a lot of us screwed up from living for decades in the United States of Sugar?
                Yes. And lifting heavy would tend to help to correct it. And eating VLC would tend to help to correct it (even if dietary carbohydrate wasn't strictly the cause, I still am convinced by the evidence that limiting it is a valuable tool for intervention).

                But that's a different question than how to maximize muscle growth. You can try to walk the tightrope of gain muscle/lose fat, or you can prioritize one over the other.

                If general health is all you're after, then do what you believe will correct any hormonal/metabolic dysfunctions. If you wanna "get swole," at all costs, eat tons of post-workout carbs and protein and drink a bunch of milk every day in addition to a hearty primal/paleo diet. Different goals, different prescriptions.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #53
                  Okay, here's a little update:

                  Two weeks into shifting my macros to 50:30:20 (fat:carbrotein), I haven't gained a single pound. My daily average is just below 4,000 calories a day. I know I will get suggestions to eat more calories, but I don't understand why this would help? Even if I'm not eating enough to put on weight very quickly, how would eating 4,000 calories a day not at least help me put on weight slowly? The fact is that I am not putting on weight whatsoever.

                  This brings me to a question I have about weightlifting. I know SS isn't the optimal routine for hypertrophy, but I still want to use it for strength gains. However, would it be beneficial for me to do a more hypertrophy-driven routine (3x10) one day a week and SS the other two days. This week, I did SS on Monday (workout A) and Wednesday (workout B). Today, I did 3x10 of each exercise included in the SS routine, minus power-cleans, and adding in chin-ups. Has anyone had any experience with a regimen like this? Every time I have put on substantial weight and muscle mass in the past, it has been through a more hypertrophy oriented lifting program.

                  What are your thoughts?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                    This brings me to a question I have about weightlifting. I know SS isn't the optimal routine for hypertrophy, but I still want to use it for strength gains. However, would it be beneficial for me to do a more hypertrophy-driven routine (3x10) one day a week and SS the other two days. This week, I did SS on Monday (workout A) and Wednesday (workout B). Today, I did 3x10 of each exercise included in the SS routine, minus power-cleans, and adding in chin-ups. Has anyone had any experience with a regimen like this? Every time I have put on substantial weight and muscle mass in the past, it has been through a more hypertrophy oriented lifting program.

                    What are your thoughts?
                    My thoughts are that if you're adding things to the Starting Strength program, it ceases to be the Starting Strength program. If you're a novice lifter, novice programming is appropriate whether you're attempting to get stronger or bigger (myofibrillar vs. sarcoplasmic hypertrophy). If you're not a novice lifter, novice programming is inappropriate whether you're attempting to get stronger or bigger.
                    The Champagne of Beards

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