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  • #31
    Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
    Q: Are white-carbs actually needed to grow muscle? Or do they assist muscle growth, and how so?
    The way I think it works is that the carbs help replenish your glycogen which makes you feel more energetic, and if you feel energetic and strong you can lift more weight and if you can lift more weight you will grow more muscle. That might not be how it actually works, but pretty much anything that lets you lift more weight will help you grow more muscle.
    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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    • #32
      The assumption that excess fat is directly stored as fat, while carbs are used by the body as timed-release fuel and glycogen loading is three decades old conventional wisdom. That is the basis of the fat free diet.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        The assumption that excess fat is directly stored as fat, while carbs are used by the body as timed-release fuel and glycogen loading is three decades old conventional wisdom. That is the basis of the fat free diet.
        excess EVERYTHING is stored as fat. carbs are utilized to replenish glycogen and provide energy. any excess carbs are also stored as fat. whether you believe what i said to be CW or not is your opinion. what i stated is true

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        • #34
          Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
          excess EVERYTHING is stored as fat. carbs are utilized to replenish glycogen and provide energy. any excess carbs are also stored as fat. whether you believe what i said to be CW or not is your opinion. what i stated is true
          Um... okay. Which is why CW considers it safe to eat unlimited carbs while no amount of fat is safe. Maybe I should have made that part clearer.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
            Um... okay. Which is why CW considers it safe to eat unlimited carbs while no amount of fat is safe. Maybe I should have made that part clearer.
            honestly, wtf are you even talking about? excess calories, regardless of the source, are stored as fat. nobody is talking about fat free diets here. if you truly think that carbs are the enemy, or that primal or paleo dieting is in any way, shape or form a low carb diet, then you need to re-read the book. unlimited carbs ARE safe. carbs are not the enemy.

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            • #36
              I came across this old post from Kurt Harris that I posted in another thread recently:
              Archevore - Archevore Blog - Insulin is a doorman at the fat cell nightclub, not a lock on the*door

              I agree with most of what y'all are saying. I guess the main point of contention is "what is excess"? If you are training hard (burning glycogen) and not eating much in the way of carbs, your performance will suffer somewhat, at least when you try to tap your "top gear". You can still lift heavy, just not as many reps, etc.

              I think it is harder to eat a caloric excess from carbs if you are training hard than it is to get the same excess from fat for at least 2 reasons. One, simple caloric density. Two, if you are training hard, you will be burning through significant amounts of glycogen on a regular basis. Typical whole-body glycogen storage is 400-600g, sometimes higher (depends on many factors). Your body will replenish glycogen before it goes through the work of converting carbs to fat for de novo lipogenesis. It's actually pretty dang hard to reach that point. Typically, it's not that the carbs are being stored as fat, it's that they're preventing oxidation of fat (either bodyfat or dietary fat). Here's a good post from Lyle McDonald that covers it pretty well I think.:
              How We Get Fat | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
              Last edited by yodiewan; 03-07-2013, 12:59 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by yodiewan View Post
                I came across this old post from Kurt Harris that I posted in another thread recently:
                Archevore - Archevore Blog - Insulin is a doorman at the fat cell nightclub, not a lock on the*door

                I agree with most of what y'all are saying. I guess the main point of contention is "what is excess"? If you are training hard (burning glycogen) and not eating much in the way of carbs, your performance will suffer somewhat, at least when you try to tap your "top gear". You can still lift heavy, just not as many reps, etc.

                I think it is harder to eat a caloric excess from carbs if you are training hard than it is to get the same excess from fat for at least 2 reasons. One, simple caloric density. Two, if you are training hard, you will be burning through significant amounts of glycogen on a regular basis. Typical whole-body glycogen storage is 400-600g, sometimes higher (depends on many factors). Your body will replenish glycogen before it goes through the work of converting carbs to fat for de novo lipogenesis. It's actually pretty dang hard to reach that point. Here's a good post from Lyle McDonald that covers it pretty well I think:
                How We Get Fat | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
                good links

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                  my reasoning, and i could be wrong is sort of twofold. 1-excess fat consumed is stored directly as fat. and we don't need nearly as much dietary fat as some of the bulletproof coffee and fat-bomb guzzlers around here would have us believe. and 2, the carbs will restore the glycogen stores depleted by the strenuous exercise needed to adequately break down muscle tissue. plus, post workout insulin spikes create an ideal anabolic state (although you will hear people argue to what degree)

                  do you agree that you need to have a caloric surplus in order to build muscle? if yes (i hope yes) then explain to me how excess dietary fat would aid in muscle growth as opposed to carbohydrate consumption. what role does fat play in muscle growth?
                  I agree on all accounts. Come to think of it, about a year ago in the midst of a running injury I lifted for about three months and recall getting up to 180 pounds. However, I was consuming in xs of 500g of carbohydrates a day and between 4-5,000 calories. Now, I certainly do not believe I need that many carbs, and would find it unhealthy. But what I am recalling is that I seemed to put on muscle fairly quick in those three months.

                  Here is an interesting question, however. Say I get up to 185 pounds, will I require the same amount of carbs to maintain this weight and muscle mass? My intuition tells me that if I return to a high fat, low-carb diet while maintaining a sufficient calorie intake, that my muscle will be preserved. I understand that some of you may ridicule this question as stupid, but I am under the impression that our understanding of the human body is incredibly incomplete, so I am always trying to ask questions to fortify/mold my knowledge.

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                  • #39
                    And please, let's not let this thread become a debate between CW and Primal/Paleo. I think we can all appreciate the factual science and also agree that carbs are not the devils preferred food.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                      I agree on all accounts. Come to think of it, about a year ago in the midst of a running injury I lifted for about three months and recall getting up to 180 pounds. However, I was consuming in xs of 500g of carbohydrates a day and between 4-5,000 calories. Now, I certainly do not believe I need that many carbs, and would find it unhealthy. But what I am recalling is that I seemed to put on muscle fairly quick in those three months.

                      Here is an interesting question, however. Say I get up to 185 pounds, will I require the same amount of carbs to maintain this weight and muscle mass? My intuition tells me that if I return to a high fat, low-carb diet while maintaining a sufficient calorie intake, that my muscle will be preserved. I understand that some of you may ridicule this question as stupid, but I am under the impression that our understanding of the human body is incredibly incomplete, so I am always trying to ask questions to fortify/mold my knowledge.
                      if you get up to 185lbs, and the weight increase is in lean muscle mass, and not water weight, you should be able to preserve the muscle mass with adequate calorie intake, with an emphasis on getting enough protein in your diet. that would be my guess. lowering carb intake may cause you to drop a little water weight, revealing just how much lean mass you actually gained during your higher carb experiment.

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                      • #41
                        What is excess carbohydrates?

                        My answer is any amount above which you need to refill glycogen stores of muscle/liver for daily needs. I think the issues with too much carbs become prevalent in the fact that beyond filling those stores there are simply no "good" disposal pathways for carbs. So yes... exercise creates more of a buffer so that you have that glycogen sink to fill before overconsumption.

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                        • #42
                          My intake yesterday was 52% fat, 24% carbs, and 24% protein for a total of 4000 calories. This is a decent shift from the 65/15/20 I had been implementing. I honestly feel more recovered today than I have been after my workouts. Whether it be due to more carbs or not remains to be seen. Could my muscles have been struggling to replenish glycogen stores without enough carbs, and thus not feel as recovered?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            What is excess carbohydrates?

                            My answer is any amount above which you need to refill glycogen stores of muscle/liver for daily needs. I think the issues with too much carbs become prevalent in the fact that beyond filling those stores there are simply no "good" disposal pathways for carbs. So yes... exercise creates more of a buffer so that you have that glycogen sink to fill before overconsumption.
                            Okay, this makes good sense. But I have a few questions about it...

                            Does this work the same for everyone? Or only those whose muscles are insulin sensitive?

                            Hypothetically, say you have a 150g deficit of glycogen. If you eat 150g of carbs, will all of this be directed to fill your glycogen stores, or will insulin also partition some of it to fat storage? I assume this would be the case if your muscles are insulin sensitive.

                            However, say you have the same deficit and eat the same amount of carbs, but you are insulin resistant, will a large amount of these carbs then be stored as fat instead of replenishing glycogen stores?

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                              Okay, this makes good sense. But I have a few questions about it...

                              Does this work the same for everyone? Or only those whose muscles are insulin sensitive?

                              Hypothetically, say you have a 150g deficit of glycogen. If you eat 150g of carbs, will all of this be directed to fill your glycogen stores, or will insulin also partition some of it to fat storage? I assume this would be the case if your muscles are insulin sensitive.

                              However, say you have the same deficit and eat the same amount of carbs, but you are insulin resistant, will a large amount of these carbs then be stored as fat instead of replenishing glycogen stores?
                              Ok... your muscles.. and anyone's, even those who have IR, will be objectively more insulin sensitive post workout than if you were sedentary. However this may only make an IR individual sensitive enough to be "normal" for that post work out period.

                              IR means your cells don't wanna let the nutrients in, so they circulate in the blood at higher than normal levels for longer than normal amounts of time. This causes the same sort of damage that overconsumption can cause, but on a regular basis. It also means that the glucose still needs to be disposed of in some manner... even if it can't be assimilated into the cells. So to me this means that those secondary disposal pathways and lipogenesis happens more readily in a IR person.

                              Thats my current understanding. The energy imbalance of the cells has caused the cells to preserve themselves by not allowing energy in as readily (insulin resistance)... this saves the cells, but causes collateral damage to other systems since elevated blood lipids and blood glucose (both signs of IR) wreak havoc....

                              I probably could proof read this and explain better, but oh well. I think thats about right

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                                do you agree that you need to have a caloric surplus in order to build muscle? if yes (i hope yes) then explain to me how excess dietary fat would aid in muscle growth as opposed to carbohydrate consumption. what role does fat play in muscle growth?
                                Exactly. I think that is an interesting question.

                                Hmm I actually think fat might be VERY important to muscle growth, simply because in the natural world fat and protein always go together! That's how nature made it, and nature knows what it is doing. Perhaps it is that saturated fat and cholesterol increase our testosterone and provide a hormonal environment where we muscle up? It makes sense to me that we have adapted to hunt and drag huge logs onto the fire (exercise), then eat the animal (fat and protein), then get strong.

                                What I still don't understand is why carbs would be associated with muscle growth. If the kill was successful we wouldn't load up on sweet potatoes and leafs, cause hey we have meat! I've heard the theory that insulin spiking after work drives protein into the muscle? But I thought insulin spiking is what we are trying to avoid with paleolithic eating?

                                Surplus calories - that's easy, we absolutely need surplus food to build mass. I certainly do when lifting. I've done this by holding protein at .7g/pound body weight, and increasing fat (butter/almonds/coconut oil/sardines in oil) for the excess calories. But whenever I've added sweet potatoes I've added mass, but around the mid-section.

                                Anyhow, just some pondering, it is an interesting question.

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