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  • #16
    Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
    how about a shift in macros? less fat, more protein and way more carbs. with a 4000 calorie diet, 15% is 600 cals from carbs, i.e. 150 grams. and 20% protein is 200 grams. personally, id shift the marcos. another thing, and don't get me wrong, i LOVE starting strength. LOVE it for beginners. but it isn't necessarily the ideal program for hypertrophy, particularly if you aren't a novice lifter. possibly shifting to a joe defranco styled workout, or even a classic bodybuilding-styled training program might suit your goals better. how old are you? how much lifting have you done throughout your life?
    Yeah, I should have emphasized in my posts that the program commonly referred to as "Starting Strength" is appropriate for novices. The book, Starting Strength is appropriate for everyone.
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #17
      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
      Yeah, I should have emphasized in my posts that the program commonly referred to as "Starting Strength" is appropriate for novices. The book, Starting Strength is appropriate for everyone.
      I'm 22 years old. I lifted religiously from 7th to 12th grade. Over the past four years I have lifted off and on without any serious goals, and all while running anywhere from 40-90 miles a week depending on what I was training for. But the last 4-5 months I have picked back up on lifting with a clear weight goal of 185, and am obviously no longer running. And not until the past two months have I picked up on SS. So I don't know if I would consider myself a novice. As I said before, I am very comfortable with all the movements since my high school lifting regimen was olympic-lift oriented. But I could be considered a novice given that I still have room for improvement in the deadlift and power-clean, yet have already stalled in the squat, bench, and press.

      As far as shifting my macros go, what's your basis, rug?

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      • #18
        you're probably past what one would consider as a "novice" lifter at this point. if you are legitimately stalling on your lifts, you could approach the lifts from a powerlifting or olympic lifting standpoint. try microloading or maybe you need a deload period. its hard to say really

        as for a macro shift, and macros in general, i'm most definitely not a believer that the PB or a paleo style of eating is necessarily a high fat diet plan. nor is it a low carb plan. if you are maintaining weight and not gaining, then you aren't getting enough of the building blocks that you need to grow. i.e. more protein and carbs. but before i'd recommend that a 175lb person eats more than 4000-4500 total calories a day, i'd suggest they eat more protein and carbs and less "empty" fat calories. thats pretty much the easiest way i can explain it.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
          I'm 22 years old. I lifted religiously from 7th to 12th grade. Over the past four years I have lifted off and on without any serious goals, and all while running anywhere from 40-90 miles a week depending on what I was training for. But the last 4-5 months I have picked back up on lifting with a clear weight goal of 185, and am obviously no longer running. And not until the past two months have I picked up on SS. So I don't know if I would consider myself a novice. As I said before, I am very comfortable with all the movements since my high school lifting regimen was olympic-lift oriented. But I could be considered a novice given that I still have room for improvement in the deadlift and power-clean, yet have already stalled in the squat, bench, and press.

          As far as shifting my macros go, what's your basis, rug?
          Novice, in this context, just means you have some room to grow before you start getting close to your genetic potential. A very rough tool to measure whether you're a novice is if you are squatting 1.5 body weights for 3 sets of 5 to full depth (below parallel, which may or may not be what your high school football S&C coach taught you. More than likely not).
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • #20
            Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
            you're probably past what one would consider as a "novice" lifter at this point. if you are legitimately stalling on your lifts, you could approach the lifts from a powerlifting or olympic lifting standpoint. try microloading or maybe you need a deload period. its hard to say really

            as for a macro shift, and macros in general, i'm most definitely not a believer that the PB or a paleo style of eating is necessarily a high fat diet plan. nor is it a low carb plan. if you are maintaining weight and not gaining, then you aren't getting enough of the building blocks that you need to grow. i.e. more protein and carbs. but before i'd recommend that a 175lb person eats more than 4000-4500 total calories a day, i'd suggest they eat more protein and carbs and less "empty" fat calories. thats pretty much the easiest way i can explain it.
            I am guessing you mean carbs that are also a source of nutrients/AOs. Fruits, veggies, etc. I only say this because you say fat can be empty calories, but so can carbs depending on the source. But I am guessing you mean carbs in the primal sense: no grains, legumes, etc. I just want to clarify...

            Rich, I was taught to go parallel, but my hiatus from lifting made me forget that. For the first three months I worked up to 230 on squats but videoed myself and realized I wasn't doing it correctly. So from there I went down to 170lbs to work on form and have since worked back up to 210.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
              Rich, I was taught to go parallel, but my hiatus from lifting made me forget that. For the first three months I worked up to 230 on squats but videoed myself and realized I wasn't doing it correctly. So from there I went down to 170lbs to work on form and have since worked back up to 210.
              Again, this is just my opinion, and I'm not a certified anything, but I'd say you still have the potential to benefit from a novice linear progression.
              The Champagne of Beards

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                I am guessing you mean carbs that are also a source of nutrients/AOs. Fruits, veggies, etc. I only say this because you say fat can be empty calories, but so can carbs depending on the source. But I am guessing you mean carbs in the primal sense: no grains, legumes, etc. I just want to clarify...

                Rich, I was taught to go parallel, but my hiatus from lifting made me forget that. For the first three months I worked up to 230 on squats but videoed myself and realized I wasn't doing it correctly. So from there I went down to 170lbs to work on form and have since worked back up to 210.
                for the most part, yes. fruits and veggies. potatoes and sweet potatoes. properly prepared legumes on occasion. and white rice. granted, the white rice is pretty "empty" but its also basically harmless and a great way to get the extra carbs that someone trying to grow muscle needs. the reason i said a macro shift might be in order is twofold: 1-you are stalling on your lifts. and 2-you aren't growing muscle. but you aren't complaining of getting fat either. with your bodyweight and the amount of calories you are eating, i'd think to shift the macros a little. if you think you need to eat more calories in general, then i'd eat more protein and carbs anyway. so again, a shift in macro percentages will take place.

                like i said earlier too, if you plan on sticking to the SS program, microloading or a deload period might be needed. as RM said, get the book. or like i also said earlier, a hypertrophy-based lifting program might be what you need.

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                • #23
                  I agree that you should eat more carbs and protein. As a woman doing a geezer-modified version of Starting Strength, I eat quite a bit of protein and sweet/white potatoes. I make steady and slow progress on my lifts. I can see and feel visible muscle being built. All this without massive calories or massive weight gain. (Sadly, still kinda fat, but all the more of a miracle that I can see the muscle in my upper body.)

                  Anyway, in SS the suggestion is that if you repeat the same weights 3 workouts in a row without progress, you should drop back 10% and work up again. Also, seriously, take some form videos of yourself and post them to the SS forum and ask for help. Your problem could be entirely form and nothing to do with calories.
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                    for the most part, yes. fruits and veggies. potatoes and sweet potatoes. properly prepared legumes on occasion. and white rice. granted, the white rice is pretty "empty" but its also basically harmless and a great way to get the extra carbs that someone trying to grow muscle needs. the reason i said a macro shift might be in order is twofold: 1-you are stalling on your lifts. and 2-you aren't growing muscle. but you aren't complaining of getting fat either. with your bodyweight and the amount of calories you are eating, i'd think to shift the macros a little. if you think you need to eat more calories in general, then i'd eat more protein and carbs anyway. so again, a shift in macro percentages will take place.

                    like i said earlier too, if you plan on sticking to the SS program, microloading or a deload period might be needed. as RM said, get the book. or like i also said earlier, a hypertrophy-based lifting program might be what you need.
                    Yeah, I'm definitely not gaining any fat. I am going to up my carbs and protein, then. I have a huge bag of organic quinoa I could put to use. I'll shift my macros and stick with SS for now and see if that helps.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                      Yeah, I'm definitely not gaining any fat. I am going to up my carbs and protein, then. I have a huge bag of organic quinoa I could put to use. I'll shift my macros and stick with SS for now and see if that helps.
                      keep us posted for sure

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                        granted, the white rice is pretty "empty" but its also basically harmless and a great way to get the extra carbs that someone trying to grow muscle needs.
                        Q: Are white-carbs actually needed to grow muscle? Or do they assist muscle growth, and how so?

                        I'm doing StrongLifts 5x5 program. The body analyzer at my gym says I've added 2lb muscle and lost a small amount of fat, overall up about 1lb weight, in the last 30days. I eat a lot. But I never carb other than 100g of vegi carbs per day (which includes about 40g sugar from carrots and such). I'm not against adding a small sweet potato, just can't think of any reason why I should, and from experience I know even a sweet potato will accumulate fat around the waist. But does that sweet potato also have some relation to muscle growth?

                        That's my question, because I am starting to hit my max lifts now (stalled-out for the first time yesterday). Getting lots of sleep and fat/protein to be ready for the next lift to keep it moving up. And microweights if need be. Just not sure I understand if/how white-carbs could build muscle faster???
                        Last edited by KimchiNinja; 03-06-2013, 08:16 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KimchiNinja View Post
                          Q: Are white-carbs actually needed to grow muscle? Or do they assist muscle growth, and how so?

                          I'm doing StrongLifts 5x5 program. The body analyzer at my gym says I've added 2lb muscle and lost a small amount of fat, overall up about 1lb weight, in the last 30days. I eat a lot. But I never carb other than 100g of vegi carbs per day (which includes about 40g sugar from carrots and such). I'm not against adding a small sweet potato, just can't think of any reason why I should, and from experience I know even a sweet potato will accumulate fat around the waist. But does that sweet potato also have some relation to muscle growth?

                          That's my question, because I am starting to hit my max lifts now (stalled-out for the first time yesterday). Getting lots of sleep and fat/protein to be ready for the next lift to keep it moving up. And microweights if need be. Just not sure I understand if/how white-carbs could build muscle faster???
                          if you are trying to build muscle, then you need surplus calories. meet your protein requirement. check. eat some fat. check. and then what. plenty of carbs. eating a surplus of calories from fat is not going to build the muscle you need. it doesn't have to be white carbs. if you can cram a surplus of carbs from veggies down your throat without eating potatoes, sweet potatoes/white rice, then more power to you.

                          i sincerely doubt that eating a small sweet potato will accumulate fat around your waist. maybe you'll hold a little water, but not fat. you gain fat from excess calories. so if you're in a surplus (because you're trying to build muscle) then you will probably gain some fat as well. while it is possible to both build muscle and burn fat at the same time (particularly for a newb), the conditions required to do either are not optimally met wihle both are occurring. if you want to add a bunch of surplus muscle, plan on adding fat. if you want to burn fat, you need to do your best to try to preserve the muscle you have.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                            if you are trying to build muscle, then you need surplus calories. meet your protein requirement. check. eat some fat. check. and then what. plenty of carbs. eating a surplus of calories from fat is not going to build the muscle you need. it doesn't have to be white carbs. if you can cram a surplus of carbs from veggies down your throat without eating potatoes, sweet potatoes/white rice, then more power to you.

                            i sincerely doubt that eating a small sweet potato will accumulate fat around your waist. maybe you'll hold a little water, but not fat. you gain fat from excess calories. so if you're in a surplus (because you're trying to build muscle) then you will probably gain some fat as well. while it is possible to both build muscle and burn fat at the same time (particularly for a newb), the conditions required to do either are not optimally met wihle both are occurring. if you want to add a bunch of surplus muscle, plan on adding fat. if you want to burn fat, you need to do your best to try to preserve the muscle you have.
                            Rug, I am curious why you find that it's carbs that will help with muscle building instead of fat. What is the mechanism? Insulin to restore glycogen to your muscles post workout?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
                              Rug, I am curious why you find that it's carbs that will help with muscle building instead of fat. What is the mechanism? Insulin to restore glycogen to your muscles post workout?
                              I'm not "Rug," but yes, insulin is the reason carbohydrates are often recommended with protein post-workout.
                              The Champagne of Beards

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                              • #30
                                my reasoning, and i could be wrong is sort of twofold. 1-excess fat consumed is stored directly as fat. and we don't need nearly as much dietary fat as some of the bulletproof coffee and fat-bomb guzzlers around here would have us believe. and 2, the carbs will restore the glycogen stores depleted by the strenuous exercise needed to adequately break down muscle tissue. plus, post workout insulin spikes create an ideal anabolic state (although you will hear people argue to what degree)

                                do you agree that you need to have a caloric surplus in order to build muscle? if yes (i hope yes) then explain to me how excess dietary fat would aid in muscle growth as opposed to carbohydrate consumption. what role does fat play in muscle growth?

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