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  • #16
    Originally posted by Wanderlust View Post
    A lot tougher....
    It's really not. It's just easier to eat more calories if you don't restrict your carb intake.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ripped View Post
      It's better to stay lean. Most of the smarter folks over there know that. You're only going to be able to gain say 30-50 lbs of muscle naturally anyways, and that only takes a few years. After that, you just have to do what you have to do to keep the fat off. Bulking is pointless.
      You may only be able to gain 30-50 pounds of muscle and stay lean, but you can gain more - A LOT more - if you allow your bodyfat percentage to increase. For instance, NFL linemen, 105 kg+ olympic weightlifters and professional sumo wrestlers carry a fuck ton of muscle under their layers of fat. In some cases more than the steroid assisted heavyweight bodybuilders. Of course, that doesn't mean they have the potential to become the next Mr. Olympia, because much of that muscle tissue would come off if they ever tried to get lean.

      Anyway, what really strikes me as odd is the "it's better to stay lean" part. Because there's also a consensus that it's important to improve your strength if you want to gain any appreciable muscle. And these two things do not always go hand in hand.

      A 5'7" person who weighs 155 lbs (~25 BMI) has the same stats as both a stage ready natural bodybuilder and a semi-professional olympic weightlifter. That's pretty cool. He can lift heavy AND stay lean at his current weight.

      A 5'11" person who wants to compete in natural bodybuilding should weigh approximately 175 lbs (~25 BMI). However, he should weigh 200 lbs (~28 BMI) to be a competitive semi-professional olympic weightlifter. So he has to make a choise: Optimal leanness or optimal relative strength for olympic lifting or somewhere in between. He can't have both and be competitive.

      It's funny how much faith people have in Mark Rippetoe when it comes to his training programs. But it's even funnier how little faith they have in him when he says that it's a good idea to pig out when following his programs - as if he somehow overestimates the importance of gaining weight, be it fat or muscle.
      Yeah, my grammar sucks. Deal with it!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Kharnath View Post
        It's funny how much faith people have in Mark Rippetoe when it comes to his training programs. But it's even funnier how little faith they have in him when he says that it's a good idea to pig out when following his programs - as if he somehow overestimates the importance of gaining weight, be it fat or muscle.
        Yeah, I basically put little faith in him for either so I have no cognitive dissonance to speak of .

        But, I think your coming back to the point of what is your goal? If its strength "at all cost" i.e you are willing to sacrifice other attributes of health well then by all means just eat a fuck ton of food get fat and get strong all at once. There really is no argument that this will produce the most strength.

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        • #19
          Post up pics. Lets see these strength gains.... and stay on the diet long enough. Glucagon breaks down muscle in the long run.

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          • #20
            I don't log into the forums much but I read the comments on some on the Facebook posts. I don't think it helps the meathead stereotype that those commenters are some of the most illiterate people outside of YouTube comment threads. A lot of them are likely non-native English speakers, but then a lot are also completely incoherent. And they sure love throwing the insult "pussy" around. I've done it on occasion but not because someone squats less than me.

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            • #21
              Carbs we take in from vegetables / diaries / perhaps oats from time to time - are enough for lean muscle gaining.
              The dextrose / maltodextrin the "gainers" usually contain are for getting fat & muscular, not lean & muscular
              That's just another side of the book, i guess, that people never care to see....

              Also - weight should = muscle, not fat - please!
              That's the smart way to gain weight, by adding muscle & being faster, stronger
              Last edited by alexpanait; 01-27-2013, 01:05 PM.
              "...Primal or not primal - that is the question!"

              ------------------------------------
              Starting weight 85kg, 22% bodyfat (December 2012)
              Current weight 78kg, 15% bodyfat (March 2013)
              Desired weight 83-84kg , 7-8% bodyfat (May 2014 or sooner)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                Yeah, I basically put little faith in him for either so I have no cognitive dissonance to speak of .

                But, I think your coming back to the point of what is your goal? If its strength "at all cost" i.e you are willing to sacrifice other attributes of health well then by all means just eat a fuck ton of food get fat and get strong all at once. There really is no argument that this will produce the most strength.
                Rippetoe's argument is often misunderstood, in fact he has written an article on it:

                A Clarification - Mark Rippetoe

                The point though is that IF you are a male between the ages of 18-35, who is not already fat, you need to eat a ton of food to do Starting Strength if you want to get the most out of it. As a result of doing so, you will gain some body fat.

                Rippetoe's argument is not that everyone should just shovel garbage into their mouth and get unhealthy, fat, and strong. In fact, Rippetoe considers a paleo-type diet the healthiest long-term, and even recommends it to the "huskier" beginners.

                Edit: I know many will not read the article, so here are some excerpts:

                "Eating correctly may mean 6000 calories/day with a gallon of whole milk, or it may mean 3500 calories/day on a paleo-type
                lower carb no-dairy diet, depending on your initial body composition."

                "The goal of the program is not to make you fat. The program is for increasing strength and muscle mass. The idea is that you must gain some bodyfat in the process if your bodyfat is low, and that you should lose some bodyfat if it is high. I don’t want you fat, but I don’t care about seeing your abs. If you want to see your abs, fine – worry about that later."

                "After the first three or four months, a change will be necessary for most guys that started off skinny. If you have done the program correctly, you will have gained quite a bit of weight, about 60% of it being lean body mass – muscle, tendon, and bone. This means that your bodyfat may have also gone from ~10% to 18-19%. This is fine; it was necessary to produce the LBM increase. But now it’s time to modify the diet to reflect your body’s approach to its limit of fast LBM growth. It obviously can’t go on forever, but it must occur at first to get our goal accomplished. Now, we need to drop the milk down to a half gallon a day for a while, and then perhaps less than that. At the same time, daily caloric intake should drop to about 4000/day, accomplished by cleaning up the carb intake and focusing on dietary quality instead of quantity like you did at first. This will allow your bodyfat levels to drop back to where they need to be, in the range of 15-17%, normal for athletic males in our demographic."
                Last edited by quikky; 01-27-2013, 01:30 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by alexpanait View Post
                  Also - weight should = muscle, not fat - please!
                  That's the smart way to gain weight, by adding muscle & being faster, stronger
                  Woo woo.. and too much ego.

                  Cell membrane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by alexpanait View Post
                    Carbs we take in from vegetables / diaries / perhaps oats from time to time - are enough for lean muscle gaining.
                    The dextrose / maltodextrin the "gainers" usually contain are for getting fat & muscular, not lean & muscular
                    That's just another side of the book, i guess, that people never care to see....

                    Also - weight should = muscle, not fat - please!
                    That's the smart way to gain weight, by adding muscle & being faster, stronger
                    Adding just muscle is awesome... But not really possible. Even bodybuilders on steroids gain fat while building muscle.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by cobalamin View Post
                      Thanks for the Wiki-link, that's just about what i'm studying right now at my University
                      As for the ego - a non-ego driven person would be more interesting, yet ambitious ? Don't think so...

                      ------
                      Regarding gaining fat while adding muscle to the body, well, it sure may be possible but it's draconic and nobody wants to calculate macro-nutrients day in, day out....therefore - yet, you're right - i just meant that eating right + some form of fitness (not really barbell training) can yield in nice results, body-wise
                      As Mark would say - 80% of what our body looks like comes from what we eat! Couldn't agree more
                      "...Primal or not primal - that is the question!"

                      ------------------------------------
                      Starting weight 85kg, 22% bodyfat (December 2012)
                      Current weight 78kg, 15% bodyfat (March 2013)
                      Desired weight 83-84kg , 7-8% bodyfat (May 2014 or sooner)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The main premises of the "lifestyles" are very different from mda.com and bb.com.

                        Nothing wrong with bodybuilding, just not my current focus in life. This way of lifting, eating, etc nets me much more bang for the limited time invested. I remain pretty ripped and free up a ton of hours to devote to my family, career, etc.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by alexpanait View Post
                          Thanks for the Wiki-link, that's just about what i'm studying right now at my University
                          As for the ego - a non-ego driven person would be more interesting, yet ambitious ? Don't think so...

                          ------
                          Regarding gaining fat while adding muscle to the body, well, it sure may be possible but it's draconic and nobody wants to calculate macro-nutrients day in, day out....therefore - yet, you're right - i just meant that eating right + some form of fitness (not really barbell training) can yield in nice results, body-wise
                          As Mark would say - 80% of what our body looks like comes from what we eat! Couldn't agree more
                          ego driven people don't have will power. Hence always trying to prove their worth to the world.
                          Heart or Ego Center | HumanDesign.com - Human Design System

                          The second part doesn't make sense. Who wants to gain fat while putting on muscle?

                          My only point was that muscle is not only made of protein. Nothing more.

                          No one needs to calculate macros. Its about following the internal instincts, not the mind, its as simple as not eating if the stomach doesn't rumble and incorporating more micronutrients from natural whole foods instead of macronutrients. Macronutrients are overrated; especially protein.

                          Mark makes a lot of good points that others have made but he just regurgitates information and some articles have major errors.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by quikky View Post
                            Rippetoe's argument is often misunderstood, in fact he has written an article on it:

                            A Clarification - Mark Rippetoe
                            .....[/I]
                            Thats all quite reasonable. I actually just meant I don't follow his program or dietary guidelines myself.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Was this article posted in this thread? I found it quite interesting.
                              T NATION | Truth About Bulking

                              Being a lady, I get to do the exact opposite of Rippetoe's plan. I get to build strength without getting big, without getting fat and without GOMAD. Sure, I eat more and I eat more protein, but I try not to add any size to my waistline AT ALL. And yet I'm still getting stronger. So I agree with the t-nation article above that bulking is not a good idea.
                              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                                Was this article posted in this thread? I found it quite interesting.
                                T NATION | Truth About Bulking.
                                Even more reasonable.

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