Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Strength good, conditioning bad. Help.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by quikky View Post
    Uhm, ok. I still don't know what exactly you're trying to say. So when muscles get bigger from an exercise, you get strength carryover? Huh?
    Yep!

    Originally posted by quikky View Post
    If you're saying that as long as there is muscle growth, there is carryover strength regardless of the type of exercise, then you're quite wrong.

    Not at all, it has been known for more than forthy years that its a very strong correlation between the diameter of a musclecell and it's strength, basically thats just what a musclecell can do as a response to exercise, increasing its volume. This correlation is so strong that one of the way scientists defining increase of "strenght" is by biotopsy, they just take a sample from the muscle to see whether the musclefiber increased it's volume or not. From this perspective no need for a test apparatus for measuring of "strenght" at all.



    Originally posted by quikky View Post
    We're not talking about intensity, we're talking about poor programming. You can exhaust muscles using high reps too.
    Well, I actually talked about exhausting the CNS, didn't I? Thats something totally different, and much more taxing related to recuperation.


    Originally posted by quikky View Post
    Again, what other exercises produce the same increase in strength as heavy barbell compound lifts? Name them.
    And again, how are we going to test the strength output then, what about armwrestling to find the strongest guy as they used to do in old days, or a strongman competition perhaps, is that what you are thinking???


    Originally posted by quikky View Post
    Abstract? That's what strength is. I am not sure how much more straightforward of a definition you want. Pick any measure you strength you want - pulling strength, pushing strength, carrying strength, pressing strength, whatever. Then, answer the question I posed earlier about what would work as well as compound lifts.
    Well you still don't understand, I have showed you above that heavy deadlift pullers, even those in lower weightclasses, cannot pull themselves up with one arm in a chin bar, but a gymnast that have trained only with his bodyweight can do it easily. If we test leg-press with one leg who do you think can press most, the guy that can squat heavy and never do leg-press or the guy that train one legged leg-press on a regular basis but can't do heavy squat? We assume that their training backgrounds are about similar.

    So you better look up some textbooks on the subject of exercise physiology, because you apparently lack the basic knowlegde, and I have better things to do than playing your teacher here...
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

    - Schopenhauer

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Not at all, it has been known for more than forthy years that its a very strong correlation between the diameter of a musclecell and it's strength, basically thats just what a musclecell can do as a response to exercise, increasing its volume. This correlation is so strong that one of the way scientists defining increase of "strenght" is by biotopsy, they just take a sample from the muscle to see whether the musclefiber increased it's volume or not. From this perspective no need for a test apparatus for measuring of "strenght" at all.
      Ok, this is veering off into strange places. Now you're saying that it has been known for forty years that a larger muscle is, ::gasp::, stronger than a smaller muscle? I am shocked at this revelation. However, even though you're sharing this painfully obvious fact, you're also missing some key parameters aside from volume, such as proportions (longer vs. shorter levers), and muscle density. Not everyone who has a higher volume quad than me, for example, actually has a stronger quad.

      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Well, I actually talked about exhausting the CNS, didn't I? Thats something totally different, and much more taxing related to recuperation.
      You're again veering off the discussion and avoiding my questions. How you exhaust, and the process behind it is not what we're discussing. Your point was that doing something like deadlifts could be counterproductive because it would cause overtraining. My point was that it's a matter of proper programming, not the exercise itself.

      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      And again, how are we going to test the strength output then, what about armwrestling to find the strongest guy as they used to do in old days, or a strongman competition perhaps, is that what you are thinking???
      You said there are many ways of increasing strength aside from heavy compound lifts. I asked what they were. You then asked to define strength. I defined strength and again asked what you can do to increase it as well as the heavy compound lifts. Now you're saying you don't know how to measure it and again dodging my question.

      If you don't know, then that is the crux of my argument, and your lack of response essentially underlines that I am indeed right. Unless of course, you can answer my question.

      Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
      Well you still don't understand, I have showed you above that heavy deadlift pullers, even those in lower weightclasses, cannot pull themselves up with one arm in a chin bar, but a gymnast that have trained only with his bodyweight can do it easily. If we test leg-press with one leg who do you think can press most, the guy that can squat heavy and never do leg-press or the guy that train one legged leg-press on a regular basis but can't do heavy squat? We assume that their training backgrounds are about similar.

      So you better look up some textbooks on the subject of exercise physiology, because you apparently lack the basic knowlegde, and I have better things to do than playing your teacher here...
      You showed nothing but anecdotal evidence. It's like me saying every lifter I know is stronger than every gymnast I know. Well, that proves nothing, does it? I'm also honestly not sure why you keep talking about pull-ups.

      Speaking of leg press, I would like to see that test, because I am sure the strong squatter will do far better at the leg press than the leg presser at the squat.

      I am not sure why you're trying to talk down to me (especially since you still have not told us how to train strength without compound heavy lifts but with the same results), unless it's just an attempt at ad hominem.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by heatseeker View Post
        I do Crossfit 3x/wk, I do a lifting class 2x/wk, and I usually get an extra lifting session in on Sundays where I just work on whatever's been weak lately (with me, it's usually squats). I think I eat enough and recover just fine--I rarely have any soreness or DOMS, I sleep great, and my numbers keep improving.

        Quick stats:
        5'5", female, 154 pounds
        1 rep maxes:
        Deadlift - 210
        Squat - 165 (def my weak spot)
        Strict press - 85
        Full clean - 125
        Jerk - 120
        I've never attempted a 1RM snatch because my form is still in the works.

        I should mention that most of the time in my lifting class, we're doing 65%-80% of our max. We retest max lifts every 4-6 weeks and work at 90-100% maybe once every two or three weeks. So it's not like I'm lifting to failure three times a week, plus metcons. That would be folly.
        Has your weight been moving (in either direction), or has it been fairly constant? If your strength keeps going up but your metcons are not improving, I would think your strength training is interfering with your metcons. That, or perhaps your metcons are too tough strength-wise and maybe they are what's driving your strength up.

        One thing I would check, is if you're not doing the same exercises both in the metcons and in your lifting class. For example, maybe you do squats during the lifting class, and then do some squat variation as part of your CrossFit workout? If nothing like that is going on, and you get plenty of rest for all the muscle groups, I would consider lifting less, such as less volume per workout (fewer work sets/reps), or maybe even fewer times a week, if you are that concerned with improving your metcons.

        Also, how do you know your metcons are not improving? Maybe you're doing them with more intensity? Maybe you're using more weight? Maybe they're too varied and done for time so you always feel burned out?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by quikky View Post
          Ok, this is veering off into strange places. Now you're saying that it has been known for forty years that a larger muscle is, ::gasp::, stronger than a smaller muscle? I am shocked at this revelation. However, even though you're sharing this painfully obvious fact, you're also missing some key parameters aside from volume, such as proportions (longer vs. shorter levers), and muscle density. Not everyone who has a higher volume quad than me, for example, actually has a stronger quad.
          Well, since you obviously lack the basic understanding, we are not comparing leverage between different persons here, but a given muscle cell or bundle of muscle cell compared to itself.

          Originally posted by quikky View Post
          You're again veering off the discussion and avoiding my questions. How you exhaust, and the process behind it is not what we're discussing. Your point was that doing something like deadlifts could be counterproductive because it would cause overtraining. My point was that it's a matter of proper programming, not the exercise itself.
          Did I say that? lets see what I actually said then: " Deadlift can be a great exercise, and I am even going to do it myself today, but it all depends on your goals and the context of what you are training for. It is far from a "must" in the world of lifting and it may be counterproductive for some people as well."

          So you are just twisting and trolling what I said, and I find it very little productive discussing more with you.


          Originally posted by quikky View Post
          You said there are many ways of increasing strength aside from heavy compound lifts. I asked what they were. You then asked to define strength. I defined strength and again asked what you can do to increase it as well as the heavy compound lifts. Now you're saying you don't know how to measure it and again dodging my question.

          If you don't know, then that is the crux of my argument, and your lack of response essentially underlines that I am indeed right. Unless of course, you can answer my question.
          No need to answer your trolling anymore, go and read a few textbooks on the subject and get some years of lifting experience first.


          Originally posted by quikky View Post
          You showed nothing but anecdotal evidence. It's like me saying every lifter I know is stronger than every gymnast I know. Well, that proves nothing, does it? I'm also honestly not sure why you keep talking about pull-ups.

          Speaking of leg press, I would like to see that test, because I am sure the strong squatter will do far better at the leg press than the leg presser at the squat.
          Well, you are probably only a 17 years old teenage boy anyway, so come back after 10 - 15 years of lifting experience and some basic knowlegde first. That's my last words for this thread...
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            I cannot effectively argue with you so I will resort to attacking you personally.
            Fixed your post for you

            Comment


            • #36
              Also, how do you know your metcons are not improving? Maybe you're doing them with more intensity? Maybe you're using more weight? Maybe they're too varied and done for time so you always feel burned out?
              All of the above, really. It's not that I'm not improving on specific metcons--I've shaved a couple minutes off of each of the benchmark WODs since I started six months ago--it's that in general, I just always feel totally winded with burning muscles, and I feel like there's a point where I should start to have better endurance, no?

              My workouts are all programmed really well because my lifting class is crossfit-affiliated, so the coach knows what we'll be doing that week and programs accordingly. I don't think the lack of endurance is from overtraining any one area. It's more like, whatever the mechanism is that makes lose your breath and start to feel burning pain with exertion, is tripled in me. I seem to feel winded and muscle-fatigued sooner during the workout than everyone else.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by heatseeker View Post
                All of the above, really. It's not that I'm not improving on specific metcons--I've shaved a couple minutes off of each of the benchmark WODs since I started six months ago--it's that in general, I just always feel totally winded with burning muscles, and I feel like there's a point where I should start to have better endurance, no?

                My workouts are all programmed really well because my lifting class is crossfit-affiliated, so the coach knows what we'll be doing that week and programs accordingly. I don't think the lack of endurance is from overtraining any one area. It's more like, whatever the mechanism is that makes lose your breath and start to feel burning pain with exertion, is tripled in me. I seem to feel winded and muscle-fatigued sooner during the workout than everyone else.
                From what you describe it seems like you're doing just fine. You're not overly sore and seem to be recovering fine. Your strength is getting better. Your metcons are getting better, as you're shaving time off and increasing the intensity. What are you complaining about?

                I am not doing CrossFit anymore, but when I did a year ago I sort of had the same feeling: always feel like I am going to die, but yet I improved. I'd say if you're improving, there's nothing to worry about.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by quikky View Post
                  From what you describe it seems like you're doing just fine. You're not overly sore and seem to be recovering fine. Your strength is getting better. Your metcons are getting better, as you're shaving time off and increasing the intensity. What are you complaining about?

                  I am not doing CrossFit anymore, but when I did a year ago I sort of had the same feeling: always feel like I am going to die, but yet I improved. I'd say if you're improving, there's nothing to worry about.
                  +1

                  Forget about other people. If your weights and times are improving, just keep at it, imo.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    So simple: If you care about your muscular endurance, improve it by lifting lighter loads for reps ( while still keeping in maximal loads), if you want conditioning for "life" well does your life consist of running down bad guys? or playing football? if not. Then two days of hill sprints should be fine. Or whatever, it's just conditioning it doesn't matter. As long as you are in shape enough do move and work and breath you will be fine. If you are upset about your conditioning in a specific movement, like you said about your workouts, then that will be your goal and you improve it however you can, but conditioning comes and goes. Stronger people are harder to kill.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by heatseeker View Post
                      Lots of good stuff being thrown around, but none of it really answers my question. Any ideas on how to increase my ability to move quickly for 10-20 minutes without stopping? Call it stamina, endurance, conditioning, ability to ignore burning pain, whatever--I want to stop having to rest in the middle of metcons.
                      I don't know what the programming is like at crossfit central - but if you want to improve your "conditioning" (work capacity, endurance, stamina and cardio) then metcons 5-15 minutes in duration are ideal. From what you say it seems like your phosphagenic pathways (strength/power) are pretty good right now, but the other two (glycolytic and oxidative) need work. The most efficient way to improve them is to do metcons in the durations 5-15 minutes *as intensly as possible*.
                      Last edited by TheFastCat; 01-24-2013, 07:17 AM.
                      ad astra per aspera

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Thanks, TheFastCat. This is basically what my coach said yesterday. She also mentioned that the "burning" I describe is a sign that my lactic acid threshold is low, and I need to improve my body's ability to buffer lactic acid. She recommended interval workouts at 30s work : 1min rest, going balls-out effort for the 30s. So, basically, a tabata-style protocol. I think I'm going to throw in a tabata a day in the evening with either my kettlebell or my speed rope, or both, and see if this improves my endurance during metcons.

                        It's not that I'm not progressing, or not performing well. It's that I'm not progressing or performing as well as I COULD be. And I'm not just being impatient; I really have detected no increased ability to endure. I've just gotten better at pushing through the pain/breathlessness, and also gotten stronger, and this is why my times have improved. But I want to get to the point where I'm breathing more evenly and feeling less like my muscles are about to burn out of my body. Think of a normal everyday thing like going up several flights of stairs; I want to be able to get past the second flight before I'm sucking wind and my thighs are burning like crazy, y'know? And I feel that I SHOULD be able to.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Here's a WOD I did yesterday that would be good for you. Do it in substitution of the next lift or heavy WOD day at your gym.

                          Happy Hour: 1,000 meter Row (do this with max effort then rest)

                          Party: 3 Rounds of:

                          1 Minute to complete 25 Box Jumps (L1 - Anything under 24/20); (L2 - 24/20)

                          REST 30 SECONDS

                          1 Minute to complete 25 Kettlebell Swings (L1 - 45/25); (L2 - 55/35)

                          REST 30 SECONDS

                          **If athlete is unable to complete the required amount of reps for each movement, athlete will be assessed a 7 burpee penalty per movement not completed (Eg: Max Penalty will be 42 burpees)

                          The rower should become your best friend in the coming weeks - it is an outstanding tool for conditioning
                          ad astra per aspera

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Haha! I essentially did this same workout yesterday, except without the rest periods, and adding in sets of medball situps and burpees.

                            Are we thinking that max effort : rest in some sort of ratio is what's going to help me? That's sort of what I'm gleaning from the various advice I've been given.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Right - that's what the tabatas you do anyway are doing. Until you have the capacity to do 10 minute workouts straight through intervals are great.

                              The thing is though when you recognize a WOD like the one I linked has rest times built in -- you should be afraid. What that means is (in the example of the one I linked) that you go AS HARD AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE during the work portion. The longer the rest, the harder you need to exert yourself during the work. The rest isn't there to allow you to recover... it's there to allow you work more intensely. By forgoing your rest period for other work (situps, burpees), you are lowering your intensity while working. So the workout I linked (intervals) is actually very different than the one you did with similiar movements. Do you understand the difference? If you are trying to extend your lactic threshold - intervals like these will get you there faster than longer, less intense workouts.

                              This is why skipping rest days is bad - you need to recover (neurologically, mentally, physically) in order to return and participate as intensely as possible. The intensity is the secret sauce to the adaptation.
                              ad astra per aspera

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The rest isn't there to allow you to recover... it's there to allow you work more intensely.
                                This just opened some doors in my brain. Thanks. Okay, I'm going to add in VERY short interval sessions, probably tabatas, every other evening and see if it has an effect.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X