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  • #16
    Originally posted by PMAC View Post
    Many top level trainers recommend finishers (Alwyn Cosgrove, Nick Tumminelo to name two). They are great additions for conditioning and possible fat loss. I do them and find them to be quite effective, not to mention the way they make you feel. Please note, HIT and HIIT are two different things. Finishers are HIIT. Like everything else try it for 30 days and see if they work for you. You will never know unless YOU try. In fitness and nutrition the little things that can make a big difference are best judged by your experience and not by the opinions of others on an internet forum. By the way they are not dumb and to suggest such is well ...dumb.
    My point is that doing a "finisher" at the end of a session because you have something left in the tank suggests that you didn't work hard enough during the session. I am not arguing against either HIT or HIIT - I thought I made that pretty clear.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Coach Palfrey View Post
      My point is that doing a "finisher" at the end of a session because you have something left in the tank suggests that you didn't work hard enough during the session.
      +1
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      • #18
        Originally posted by Coach Palfrey View Post
        My point is that doing a "finisher" at the end of a session because you have something left in the tank suggests that you didn't work hard enough during the session. I am not arguing against either HIT or HIIT - I thought I made that pretty clear.
        That's bull.

        I think if you still have enough gas in the tank to walk to your car then you didn't work out hard enough.

        /sarcasm.

        As long as you're alive after your workou you can squeeze in something else. If someone is too lazy or not dedicated enough or just doesnt want to do it then that's their choice. To say I dont work out hard enough is insulting. I work out very hard, in fact, that's what makes the finishers so challenging.
        Last edited by Kingofturtles; 12-03-2012, 10:25 PM.

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        • #19
          It's arguable that the finisher won't do much more for strength gains if you do a "finisher." Personally, though, I find that if I have enough energy for the finisher, I could have pulled more weight or sets during my real workout.
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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kingofturtles View Post
            That's bull.

            I think if you still have enough gas in the tank to walk to your car then you didn't work out hard enough.

            /sarcasm.

            As long as you're alive after your workou you can squeeze in something else. If someone is too lazy or not dedicated enough or just doesnt want to do it then that's their choice. To say I dont work out hard enough is insulting. I work out very hard, in fact, that's what makes the finishers so challenging.
            It's cool - this is a forum and we don't have to agree with each other.

            In my experience, improvements come from a balance of both quality and intensity - both of which exist on a spectrum rather than as absolutes. The argument that I am putting forward is that doing something because you can does not necessarily mean that it is going to be supportive of your overall goals.

            The bottom line is that training to exhaustion often results in a reduction in work capacity (during the actual workload) and increased risk of injury. Neither of which are conducive to an increase in performance. I would rather programme high intensity work at a point in the session when the individual was best able to perform at their highest level.

            This is all compounded by the fact that finishers are often done by Type-A personality individuals who work hard anyway and therefore appear to get better results than those who don't do them.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Coach Palfrey View Post
              It's cool - this is a forum and we don't have to agree with each other.

              In my experience, improvements come from a balance of both quality and intensity - both of which exist on a spectrum rather than as absolutes. The argument that I am putting forward is that doing something because you can does not necessarily mean that it is going to be supportive of your overall goals.

              The bottom line is that training to exhaustion often results in a reduction in work capacity (during the actual workload) and increased risk of injury. Neither of which are conducive to an increase in performance. I would rather programme high intensity work at a point in the session when the individual was best able to perform at their highest level.

              This is all compounded by the fact that finishers are often done by Type-A personality individuals who work hard anyway and therefore appear to get better results than those who don't do them.
              +1,000

              A voice of reason in the wilderness.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Kingofturtles View Post
                As long as you're alive after your workou you can squeeze in something else. If someone is too lazy or not dedicated enough or just doesnt want to do it then that's their choice.
                You're making the assumption that just because you can squeeze in something else, that it will necessarily be beneficial and not detrimental.

                Remember that gains (strength gains as well as mass gains) happen during the recovery phase. If you push yourself to the point that you won't recover by the next workout (as one could by including these finishers after every workout), then you'll actually end up getting less benefit. Law of diminishing returns and all that.

                In other words, you appear to be missing the fact that sometimes, less is indeed more.
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                • #23
                  Well, I go in there with a plan already laid out for me. I rarely deviate from it, at least not much. Sometimes I can't quite do every rep on my plan. Sometimes my plan turned out to be too easy. I never really know for sure how it'll be until I get in there and do it. Since it's a plan for linear progress, I just stick with it. Then twice a week I do 5 minutes of one of these finishers. It's only 5 minutes. There's got to be enough left in anybody's tank to jump and flop around for 5 more minutes. I admit the walk out of the gym and back to my office sometimes feels pretty long after that.

                  Also, you are talking to someone who is capable of forcing herself to walk 30 miles a day for multiple days in a row on no protein. I seem to have no way of gauging what an "empty tank" feels like. There is ALWAYS more.

                  I'm not sure the difference between Mark's sprinting, HIIT and HIT. The way I've done sprints was to run for 15-20 seconds or so at max effort and then rest until I can do it again. The way I do these finisher things is to not rest at all between the various exercises, so it doesn't feel like intervals. The sprints might take me 15-20 minutes. The finisher takes me about 5 minutes. So they don't feel like the same thing at all. I haven't done any sprints for a long time. I kept hurting myself and remaining sore for days and days afterwards so I quit.
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                    The way I do these finisher things is to not rest at all between the various exercises, so it doesn't feel like intervals. The sprints might take me 15-20 minutes. The finisher takes me about 5 minutes. So they don't feel like the same thing at all. I haven't done any sprints for a long time. I kept hurting myself and remaining sore for days and days afterwards so I quit.

                    That is exactly why I started doing my sprints on a recumbent bike. Much better on the joints and hamstrings.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      You're making the assumption that just because you can squeeze in something else, that it will necessarily be beneficial and not detrimental.

                      Remember that gains (strength gains as well as mass gains) happen during the recovery phase. If you push yourself to the point that you won't recover by the next workout (as one could by including these finishers after every workout), then you'll actually end up getting less benefit. Law of diminishing returns and all that.

                      In other words, you appear to be missing the fact that sometimes, less is indeed more.
                      I agree. I think you can plan to do HIIT after you do your lifts, but that there's nothing wrong with leaving the gym with something left in the tank. As I've been reading and learning more about programming, I've come to understand that it can be better for long-term progress if you don't trash yourself every single workout. Coming from martial arts and then CrossFit, that was a bit of a revelation for me since I'd come to think that I had to be on the floor gasping and needing to rest before I even tried to walk to my car and drive home or I wasn't pushing hard enough. Finding out that I can get really good results and see real gains without doing that to myself multiple days a week was shocking. I hurt less and hurt myself less now. I can get stronger and not hobble around all week!

                      'm really enjoying feeling like I've recovered before my next workout. It feels like I do less work and get more out of it, and I think that's awesome. As a Type A, it's been an adjustment, but now I can see how it pays off. I still work hard in the gym, but I don't feel like I need to push myself into near collapse anymore. We have this weird cultural assumption that everything that's good and healthy has to involve suffering, whether that's our diets or our fitness routines or whatever. Letting go of perfectionism is refreshing.

                      Not that you can't do "finishers" if you want, but even then, you can decide to add some HIIT to the end of a workout and still make sure you leave yourself with a little in the tank. I feel like some people see finishers as a kind of penance for not having pushed hard enough on your lifts, which seems like a messed-up approach to fitness.
                      “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ecole66 View Post
                        That is exactly why I started doing my sprints on a recumbent bike. Much better on the joints and hamstrings.
                        Not to jump on this, but you are either doing it wrong, or not building up your intensity in a progressive fashion.

                        Sprints shouldn't hurt your joints, and if they do, you probably have some kind of form problems, or other lingering issues that need to be rehabilitated and fixed.

                        If they hurt your hamstrings, then you probably have weak hamstrings, and that may not be helped by working on a bike. In addition, if you overwork your quads on the bike and aren't getting good hamstring work you can cause imbalances that will lead to other issues, such as knee problems.

                        My thinking is that if it hurts, rather than avoid running entirely, I should find out why it hurts and what I can do to correct it, rather than continue in the patterns of movement that made it hurt.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                          You're making the assumption that just because you can squeeze in something else, that it will necessarily be beneficial.
                          No. I am disputing the fact that he said you shouldn't have any gas left in the tank to be able to do it. I was disputing him saying my workouts aren't hard enough.

                          As for less is more ect... That's up to the person to decide themselves. I need to work out more than other people. I do SS by the book and add movements on the end. I wasn't seeing gains until I did.

                          Also, as I stated before, adding a 1.5 mile sprit finisher got my 1.5 mile time to almost epic standards (ok. Maybe not epic).

                          Every body is different

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jfreaksho View Post
                            Not to jump on this, but you are either doing it wrong, or not building up your intensity in a progressive fashion.

                            Sprints shouldn't hurt your joints, and if they do, you probably have some kind of form problems, or other lingering issues that need to be rehabilitated and fixed.

                            If they hurt your hamstrings, then you probably have weak hamstrings, and that may not be helped by working on a bike. In addition, if you overwork your quads on the bike and aren't getting good hamstring work you can cause imbalances that will lead to other issues, such as knee problems.

                            My thinking is that if it hurts, rather than avoid running entirely, I should find out why it hurts and what I can do to correct it, rather than continue in the patterns of movement that made it hurt.
                            There is no doubt that running either sprints or marathons causes damage over the long term. Runners can deny it all they want but it has been proven over and over again. You do whatever you like but I will stick with what works for me and I will be walking pain free in my old age.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kingofturtles View Post
                              No. I am disputing the fact that he said you shouldn't have any gas left in the tank to be able to do it. I was disputing him saying my workouts aren't hard enough.

                              As for less is more ect... That's up to the person to decide themselves. I need to work out more than other people. I do SS by the book and add movements on the end. I wasn't seeing gains until I did.

                              Also, as I stated before, adding a 1.5 mile sprit finisher got my 1.5 mile time to almost epic standards (ok. Maybe not epic).

                              Every body is different
                              Not to keep this going or anything but I didn't say that your workouts weren't hard enough. I didn't even quote you - it was the comment made by PMAC.

                              As I said earlier there is an issue of context here - finishers are, by definition, add-ons at the end of a session. Including both strength and conditioning work in a session does not qualify it as a finisher.
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                              The Complete Guide To Sandbag Training
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