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  • #31
    Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Sure. Why establish a standard against which to measure progress? Just lift it differently each time. Who cares about maximizing the efficiency so you can increase force production in an optimal manner? Who cares about using proper mechanics to avoid injury? In fact, barbells are overrated, we should all be looking for gyms with suitcases instead of iron plates and 7' bars.
    If you are an amateur, none of the above should matter. IMO lifting more is not a measure of improvement at all (ask Al Kavadlo). Injury issues come into picture only if you are trying to lift crazy weight and for an amateur regardless how your form looks, it pushes up injury chances.
    Obviously you are not going to lift something half your body weight with one hand and standing with your back to it. Move and lift intuitively.
    Few but ripe.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
      If you are an amateur, none of the above should matter. IMO lifting more is not a measure of improvement at all (ask Al Kavadlo). Injury issues come into picture only if you are trying to lift crazy weight and for an amateur regardless how your form looks, it pushes up injury chances.
      Obviously you are not going to lift something half your body weight with one hand and standing with your back to it. Move and lift intuitively.
      Amateurs shouldn't lift heavy? How do they ever cease to be amateurs then? And if being able to lift heavier weight doesn't represent an increase in strength, we had better call Merriam-Webster and inform them to change the definition of the word "strength."

      And your initial argument, that form isn't necessary when lifting heavy, isn't supported at all by your second argument (that lifting heavy weight is unrelated to strength). Form is vital to lifting heavy things, for the reasons I outlined above. Even if you don't feel that lifting heavy things is necessary or effective.
      The Champagne of Beards

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      • #33
        Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
        If you are an amateur, none of the above should matter. IMO lifting more is not a measure of improvement at all... Injury issues come into picture only if you are trying to lift crazy weight and for an amateur regardless how your form looks, it pushes up injury chances...Move and lift intuitively.
        quoted for stupidity

        you're destined for an injury my friend. well, only if you decide to put down the pink dumbells and break a sweat here and there

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        • #34
          to gadsie...

          your form looks shaky. i would definitely sit down in to the lift a bit more and concentrate on driving through the heels and keeping the chest up. you're definitely locking your knees way too early, putting too much emphasis on the lower back and not enough on the hamstrings and glutes, where it should be. at the top of the motion, concentrate on driving through your hips

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          • #35
            Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
            If you are an amateur, none of the above should matter. IMO lifting more is not a measure of improvement at all (ask Al Kavadlo). Injury issues come into picture only if you are trying to lift crazy weight and for an amateur regardless how your form looks, it pushes up injury chances.
            Obviously you are not going to lift something half your body weight with one hand and standing with your back to it. Move and lift intuitively.
            I can't speak for the dudes around here, but as a woman, learning to deadlift properly has led to a significant increase in functional strength and ability. I have done pretty serious bodyweight work in the past (TKD training--I could do handstand pushups, strict pullups, etc.) but I never really developed the very useful ability to pick up something very heavy and move it until I started lifting weights. My partner until recently ran a moving and delivery business, and I reached a level of strength that I could effectively help out on jobs. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had not developed the strength and ingrained knowledge of how to move one's body while lifting that I gained through playing with barbells. Is it the only way to do it? Maybe not, but it's a damn good way.

            Perhaps men who are more naturally strong might not notice the difference as much, but many women I know who've started lifting have seen a massive improvement in their daily lives. I can put a big bag of rice up on the top shelf thanks to learning cleans and presses. I can safely help move a heavy sofa because I learned to deadlift. These things matter a great deal to this "amateur". Being able to lift more than I weigh also means I have a shot at being able to rescue my partner should anything happen where I might need to move him. That's not a minor thing to me.

            Also, injury issues only happen at heavy weights? LMAO. Tell that to anyone who's picked up a suitcase and hurt their back because they don't know how to lift properly and did it how they thought they should.
            “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

            Owly's Journal

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            • #36
              Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
              Amateurs shouldn't lift heavy? How do they ever cease to be amateurs then? And if being able to lift heavier weight doesn't represent an increase in strength, we had better call Merriam-Webster and inform them to change the definition of the word "strength."

              And your initial argument, that form isn't necessary when lifting heavy, isn't supported at all by your second argument (that lifting heavy weight is unrelated to strength). Form is vital to lifting heavy things, for the reasons I outlined above. Even if you don't feel that lifting heavy things is necessary or effective.
              Comrade Internet-Citizen, you are engaging in typical internet-logic ridden discourse. Did i say amateurs should not lift heavy? I said that all amateurs lifting heavy face injury chances. The supposedly second argument of mine that lifting heavy is unrelated to strength baffles me. Where did say that?
              Few but ripe.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Owly View Post
                I can't speak for the dudes around here, but as a woman, learning to deadlift properly has led to a significant increase in functional strength and ability. I have done pretty serious bodyweight work in the past (TKD training--I could do handstand pushups, strict pullups, etc.) but I never really developed the very useful ability to pick up something very heavy and move it until I started lifting weights. My partner until recently ran a moving and delivery business, and I reached a level of strength that I could effectively help out on jobs. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had not developed the strength and ingrained knowledge of how to move one's body while lifting that I gained through playing with barbells. Is it the only way to do it? Maybe not, but it's a damn good way.

                Perhaps men who are more naturally strong might not notice the difference as much, but many women I know who've started lifting have seen a massive improvement in their daily lives. I can put a big bag of rice up on the top shelf thanks to learning cleans and presses. I can safely help move a heavy sofa because I learned to deadlift. These things matter a great deal to this "amateur". Being able to lift more than I weigh also means I have a shot at being able to rescue my partner should anything happen where I might need to move him. That's not a minor thing to me.

                Also, injury issues only happen at heavy weights? LMAO. Tell that to anyone who's picked up a suitcase and hurt their back because they don't know how to lift properly and did it how they thought they should.
                My grandma moves heavy things. She moved heavy things all her life. She does not know what deadlift is. She does not even know what a gym is.
                You do not have to deadlift to move weights.
                Few but ripe.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Owly View Post
                  I can't speak for the dudes around here, but as a woman, learning to deadlift properly has led to a significant increase in functional strength and ability. I have done pretty serious bodyweight work in the past (TKD training--I could do handstand pushups, strict pullups, etc.) but I never really developed the very useful ability to pick up something very heavy and move it until I started lifting weights. My partner until recently ran a moving and delivery business, and I reached a level of strength that I could effectively help out on jobs. I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had not developed the strength and ingrained knowledge of how to move one's body while lifting that I gained through playing with barbells. Is it the only way to do it? Maybe not, but it's a damn good way.

                  Perhaps men who are more naturally strong might not notice the difference as much, but many women I know who've started lifting have seen a massive improvement in their daily lives. I can put a big bag of rice up on the top shelf thanks to learning cleans and presses. I can safely help move a heavy sofa because I learned to deadlift. These things matter a great deal to this "amateur". Being able to lift more than I weigh also means I have a shot at being able to rescue my partner should anything happen where I might need to move him. That's not a minor thing to me.

                  Also, injury issues only happen at heavy weights? LMAO. Tell that to anyone who's picked up a suitcase and hurt their back because they don't know how to lift properly and did it how they thought they should.
                  My grandma moves heavy things. She moved heavy things all her life. She does not know what deadlift is. She does not even know what a gym is.
                  You do not have to deadlift to move weights.
                  Few but ripe.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 70in2012
                    Did i say amateurs should not lift heavy? I said that all amateurs lifting heavy face injury chances
                    And that form doesn't matter, they should walk up to the bar and lift it intuitively... So they should lift heavy weights intuitively with the intent of getting injured? If you're presenting a good argument against lifting with proper form here, I'm failing to see it.

                    Originally posted by 70in2012 View Post
                    The supposedly second argument of mine that lifting heavy is unrelated to strength baffles me. Where did say that?
                    It was in post 31. It looked something like this:
                    Originally posted by 70in2012
                    IMO lifting more is not a measure of improvement at all
                    The Champagne of Beards

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Good for your grandmother. I'm glad she had an opportunity to develop physical strength through her lifestyle, something that presumably happened over her lifetime. Some of us grew up in families where women do not lift heavy things and where playing sports that weren't "appropriate" for girls was frowned upon (my mother made me change my gym option choice to aerobics from weightlifting and later from rock climbing). Learning to lift as an adult has been an empowering and enjoyable experience. You telling me your grandmother can lift heavy stuff without deadlifting doesn't change the fact that until I made a concerted effort to learn to lift heavy, I couldn't.

                      Anyhow, some of us also view lifting as an interesting hobby/sport, and doing it properly will help prevent injury and allow one to lift more. You may not like people doing that, but that's something we've chosen to do. If someone is choosing to deadlift, learning to do it properly is, in fact, important. You might think nobody should deadlift, but to tell people they should just forget form and go on "instinct" opens them up to far more injury risk than the risks of lifting heavy with proper technique. I think it's irresponsible to advise a teenage boy who is learning to lift that he should just forget learning to do it right and go with his gut. That's a really nice way for him to mess up his back for life if he guesses wrong and finds out by trashing his spine at 17.
                      “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                      Owly's Journal

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Owly View Post
                        Perhaps men who are more naturally strong might not notice the difference as much, but many women I know who've started lifting have seen a massive improvement in their daily lives. I can put a big bag of rice up on the top shelf thanks to learning cleans and presses. I can safely help move a heavy sofa because I learned to deadlift. These things matter a great deal to this "amateur". Being able to lift more than I weigh also means I have a shot at being able to rescue my partner should anything happen where I might need to move him. That's not a minor thing to me.
                        Long ago I had a job where my boss casually told me to go toss a 100lb bag of sand into the back of the truck so we could go out to a job site. Holy crap, how was I going to do that?? I wrestled with that thing, pushing and tugging until somehow I got it on top of a stool. I wheeled the stool over to the truck and managed to slide and scoot the bag into the bed. I do believe a lot of men out there haven't a clue how little strength some of us come with. Sure, moving a sofa is pretty easy since it's got edges and you can use your hips and legs and just push it across the room. But other things are impossible if you don't have any strength or any skills. I can see that learning to deadlift both gives you raw strength but also a skill, a blueprint for how to get something heavy off the floor without killing yourself. Fortunately, being fairly weak, I've had to deadlift with inconsistent bar heights, making it all the more useful. I really need to improve on cleaning because I struggle to lift empty bars and fixed barbells and put them back where they go.
                        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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