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  • Doctors - PAH!

    Really I give up.

    I've got something wrong with my achilles tendon, so I went to the doctors.

    Now I only run once a week, and I never do more than 10 miles, and I have been running for at least 6 months, starting in Fila Skeletoes and then getting some vivo barefoot trail shoes super cheap off Amazon when it got muddy I and was starting to fall on my arse in the skeletoes.

    I went easyin the vivo barefoot at first as they are more barefoot that the skeletoes, I got a bit of calf soreness, but nothing major.

    I think I have done something when I fell down the front steps about 5 weeks ago, and made it worse when I had a minor slip when out on rocky desent, and my worry is it's not getting better for resting, if anything it's getting worse.

    Doctors Advice - It's an over use injury - buy shoes with more arch support

    I didn't say F*&^%)FF, but explained that I didn't belive that that was the correct approch, and there is plenty of reseach to show that running shoes cause more injuries than they prevent, but that I wasn't an expert and of course you can find reseach to back up most POV.

    I've been refered to physico at least, not that I have much more faith in them either.

    Bah, guess I'm gonna have to be my own doctor and use the internet to cure me.
    You know all those pictures of Adam and Eve where they have belly button? Think about it..................... take as long as you need........................

  • #2
    i think you'll have a much better experience with the physio...they have more specific knowledge of A&P and kinesiology from my experience. they're probably more used to sitting down and working with a patient too, rather than quickly slapping on a diagnosis, prescribing something, and moving on to the next patient like most general physicians do.

    i'm certainly no expert, but it really doesn't sound like an overuse or arch support injury. but, if you recently switched to a more barefoot-ish shoe, that could have some effect on the achilles. are you running on trails, grass, road?
    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread60178.html

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    • #3
      Could you have done too much too soon...

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      • #4
        have you taken any antibiotics in the past 6 months?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by primalrob View Post
          i think you'll have a much better experience with the physio...they have more specific knowledge of A&P and kinesiology from my experience. they're probably more used to sitting down and working with a patient too, rather than quickly slapping on a diagnosis, prescribing something, and moving on to the next patient like most general physicians do.

          i'm certainly no expert, but it really doesn't sound like an overuse or arch support injury. but, if you recently switched to a more barefoot-ish shoe, that could have some effect on the achilles. are you running on trails, grass, road?
          I run mainly on foot-paths which are grassy, or muddy in woods and sometimes rocky and sometimes gravely, and bits of pavement to and from the trails and inbetween sections of trail. I was running 10 miles in skeletoes then ran just under 6 in the vivo barefoot shoes the first time, and my calfs were a bit sore the next day as I think I was a bit sloppy in the skeletoes - not heal striking, but letting the heel come down harder than needed as there is a bit of padding there (about 10 mm sole I think) But I think it was just DOMS as it went in day or two.

          Hopefully I'll get further with the physio (or it will have healed by the time I get the appointment) and I'll take both pairs of shoes with me.

          Originally posted by arthurb999 View Post
          Could you have done too much too soon...
          I don't think so as I've been running in minimalist shoes for a while (probaby from about late May) I wouldn't have thought the difference between skeletoes and vivo barefoot would have been all that much?

          Originally posted by kiks View Post
          have you taken any antibiotics in the past 6 months?
          I've not had antibiotics for ages, I would guess well over a year, but couldn't say for sure, It's certainly be a while.
          You know all those pictures of Adam and Eve where they have belly button? Think about it..................... take as long as you need........................

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tribal Rob View Post
            I run mainly on foot-paths which are grassy, or muddy in woods and sometimes rocky and sometimes gravely, and bits of pavement to and from the trails and inbetween sections of trail. I was running 10 miles in skeletoes then ran just under 6 in the vivo barefoot shoes the first time, and my calfs were a bit sore the next day as I think I was a bit sloppy in the skeletoes - not heal striking, but letting the heel come down harder than needed as there is a bit of padding there (about 10 mm sole I think) But I think it was just DOMS as it went in day or two.
            that doesn't sound too bad. my thinking was that the change to a more minimalist shoe may have led to a little bit of side to side stress or even some ligament pulling. but, i don't want to offer anything that could be way off. the physio will take the time to talk to you about the changes, figure out what makes it hurt, how to build the strength around it, etc.
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread60178.html

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            • #7
              Not all physios are anti-minimalist. Mine has been running in lighter shoes (mostly racing flats) for years and wholeheartedly approved of my choice of VFFs.
              “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

              Owly's Journal

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              • #8
                To be fair, anyone who goes to their doctor and expects to get good advice regarding exercise and athletic ability is in the wrong. It's (unfortunately) not really their job.
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                • #9
                  Lol, true. My GP just tells me to go see my physio for most of that and would probably refer me to a sports medicine specialist if it was beyond what my physio can do. I like that she doesn't pretend to be an expert on everything. More doctors need that skill.
                  “If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive.” --Audre Lorde

                  Owly's Journal

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                  • #10
                    My GP tells me EVERYTHING I complain about is an overuse issue and I should take it easy because I'm getting older. Phooey on that. This is why I never go to the doctor. They don't know what to do with active people and they have no ability to diagnose sub-clinical problems. My doctor would have waited until I had a heart attack or full-on diabetes before he would ever have suggested maybe I have a problem with carbohydrates, and even then he'd never suggest I had a problem with carbs, he'd just throw some pills at me.

                    One time I went in there because after a backpack trip my ankle hurt a lot. He diagnosed me with bursitis and said I should not get any exercise for 6 weeks and ice it. I iced it and sat around for 2 days. It just got stiffer and worse. I knew intuitively I should at least walk around gently, not just sit there doing nothing. It went away very quickly then and I've never had the problem again.
                    Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                    • #11
                      Arch supports are lethal to me. They actually cause me to hobble after a few hours wear. Now when I get new shoes I inspect the insoles and rip them out if they look suspicious. But all you hear from doctors about foot problems is, oh, get these $300 custom insoles, you need arch support, get this painful shot, this operation. I often find the info I need on the Internet or by experimenting.

                      Last time I went to a doc for something it cost me $600 and guess what, no cure. Eventually an Avon lady offered advice and the problem was gone $6 and two weeks later. WTF!

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                      • #12
                        I am an exercise physiologist. The bottom line is that most achilles injuries are repetitive stress/overuse injuries. Even if you have been running many miles, and adapted to barefoot style shoes there can still be micro-tears which go un-noticed for many months or years. When someone ruptures their achilles it almost always is not a 100% healthy tendon, usually not even 50% healthy. The bottom line is that if you start feeling pain there it is probably too late to cut back a little an hope it heals. You really need to rest it for a good amount of time. And do some support exercises.

                        I agree that standard running shoes cause more injuries than barefoot, I wear barefoot shoes myself, but that does not mean you are immune to overuse injuries. You can have whatever footwear you want and still get overuse injuries, its just part of life.

                        If you rub 2 sticks together over and over and over forever they're going to turn to saw-dust, it doesn't matter if you're wearing gloves or not.

                        Classically for overuse injuries it is suggested to decrease the irritating activity, and increase support. Most docs will tell you get more supportive footwear, because for 90-95 of patients who are not barefoot that is true. For someone who is barefoot and going to a doctor for an overuse injury I think it is the patients responsibility to know that increasing support means doing exercises or cross-training to improve their foots own muscle and ligamentous support. If they don't know that, maybe they should be wearing regular running shoes. They dont' need to know the specific exercises, but those can be discovered.

                        In other words, you went to the doctor complaining of an overuse injury. The doctor told you, you have an overuse injury, and that you should rest and get some better support. For you this means improving muscular support to the arches and ankle stability. The bottom line is, for these soft tissu injures there isn't must a doctors office can do, there no pill, test , or cure. When I see someone on the schedule complaining of achilles pain, I know they aren't going to be walking out of the visit cured, and it will be months before they are back to normal.



                        Can you tell that

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                        • #13
                          I got an Achilles injury early on in using vibrams and it took about 3 months to heal. My chiropractor did a lot of work on it (including the use of lasers and heat), and I credit him with helping me heal. An achilles support sleeve helped a lot too.


                          slow down, let your body do what it needs to, and keep building up your strength through that area.
                          --Trish (Bork)
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by thaedge View Post
                            I am an exercise physiologist. The bottom line is that most achilles injuries are repetitive stress/overuse injuries. Even if you have been running many miles, and adapted to barefoot style shoes there can still be micro-tears which go un-noticed for many months or years. When someone ruptures their achilles it almost always is not a 100% healthy tendon, usually not even 50% healthy. The bottom line is that if you start feeling pain there it is probably too late to cut back a little an hope it heals. You really need to rest it for a good amount of time. And do some support exercises.

                            I agree that standard running shoes cause more injuries than barefoot, I wear barefoot shoes myself, but that does not mean you are immune to overuse injuries. You can have whatever footwear you want and still get overuse injuries, its just part of life.

                            If you rub 2 sticks together over and over and over forever they're going to turn to saw-dust, it doesn't matter if you're wearing gloves or not.

                            Classically for overuse injuries it is suggested to decrease the irritating activity, and increase support. Most docs will tell you get more supportive footwear, because for 90-95 of patients who are not barefoot that is true. For someone who is barefoot and going to a doctor for an overuse injury I think it is the patients responsibility to know that increasing support means doing exercises or cross-training to improve their foots own muscle and ligamentous support. If they don't know that, maybe they should be wearing regular running shoes. They dont' need to know the specific exercises, but those can be discovered.

                            In other words, you went to the doctor complaining of an overuse injury. The doctor told you, you have an overuse injury, and that you should rest and get some better support. For you this means improving muscular support to the arches and ankle stability. The bottom line is, for these soft tissu injures there isn't must a doctors office can do, there no pill, test , or cure. When I see someone on the schedule complaining of achilles pain, I know they aren't going to be walking out of the visit cured, and it will be months before they are back to normal.



                            Can you tell that
                            Thanks for you input, even though if comes accross a tad angry I wast expecting a cure from the docs, but here in the UK the GP is always you first point of call. Your take on overuse injury makes sense in terms of micro undtected injurys - this would explain in my mind why I was fine till I went arse over tit down the steps - extra load and stress making an un-noticed problem rear it's head - possibley due to having to over-companstate for damage to tendons on the top of my foot - even though they didn't hurt when running.
                            You know all those pictures of Adam and Eve where they have belly button? Think about it..................... take as long as you need........................

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                            • #15
                              Thanks everyone else for you input - looks like I'm back to walking for a bit (assuming that's OK?) might have to dig the bike out for the self proppeled speed buzz and do bike spints too.
                              You know all those pictures of Adam and Eve where they have belly button? Think about it..................... take as long as you need........................

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