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Need help with finding balance between gaining lean mass and carb reduction

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  • Need help with finding balance between gaining lean mass and carb reduction

    Hi Guys!
    I am a converted primal life guy. in 4 short weeks I have realized the fat reduction i have wanted to rip abs, and see the weight i wanted to maintain so easy. That said, I now want to find the right balance to put on weight thru exercise and eating the proper way without rebounding into a gut that is typical from the "Gaining" process. I am so thrilled to see that primal is the ultimate way to stay fit, keep lean and live healthy. Just this last year I have gone from 228 to 180 - the last 8 pounds came from primal and was the easiest 8 pounds of all.

    Anyway, is there a base formula that when gaining I should have x-protein, x-fat and of course carbs to sustain some energy levels. I found my self in the third week with a little flat in energy during heavy sets, and all the while I have maintained to lose weight every week. Not sure where to turn up the carb levels a bit or just start boosting the proteins and fats and get more heavy on weight training. I am 45 and now in the best shape of my life and want to continue to live primal and grow!

    I love everything about the primal living and love the cookbooks. I have never seen results so good with short cardio bursts, heavy lifting and body weight exercises - it is awesome.

    Any insight to gain lean mass based on a better / general formula would be great.

    Thanks

  • #2
    You are over-analyzing it. Eat what you want when you want it. Eat plenty of meat, fish, vegetables, fruit, and give yourself carbs like potatoes, sweet potatoes, or rice when you feel the need.

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    • #3
      Sounds good. I am eating a lot more than I had, and was just hoping how to better "gain" weight effectively. If thats the case - I will turn up the volume! Thanks for the reply!!

      Eric

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      • #4
        If you're losing energy, you may need more carbs, especially after intense training. In the book It Starts With Food, they talk about how much to have after different level of workouts...and I know Mark has posted on workout recovery, carb re-feeds, etc. Maybe you just need a once-a-week or so infusion of sweet potatoes/more fruits and veggies to maintain the energy. And then keep around 1g protein per pound of lean body mass if you're looking to gain muscle.

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        • #5
          paleo/primal isn't low carb. eat some potatoes and rice. you'll feel the difference in your workouts almost immediately.

          a lot of people will tell you a lot of different things when it comes to gaining. but the hard fact is that you need a caloric surplus. and with a caloric surplus comes some bodyfat gain. you can minimize the surplus to a couple hundred calories a day. this will minimize fat gain. but it will also slow down the muscle gain as well. you can experiment with some calorie cycling in order to maximize the muscle growth and minimize the fat gain. that seems to be somewhat effective

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          • #6
            Gaining

            Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
            paleo/primal isn't low carb. eat some potatoes and rice. you'll feel the difference in your workouts almost immediately.

            a lot of people will tell you a lot of different things when it comes to gaining. but the hard fact is that you need a caloric surplus. and with a caloric surplus comes some bodyfat gain. you can minimize the surplus to a couple hundred calories a day. this will minimize fat gain. but it will also slow down the muscle gain as well. you can experiment with some calorie cycling in order to maximize the muscle growth and minimize the fat gain. that seems to be somewhat effective
            Sounds Good. Since I have spent so much time really seeking results and seeing results in lean muscle - I just didnt want to see the pendulum swing to fast or hard in the opposite direction when wanting to gain some size back. Going from 200 to 180, seeing ripped definition but feeling so small as compared to the round muscle I used to have.

            So to make sure - to gain the level of protein should be held at least at 1g per body weight? So 180g for a 180 pound person. more if more size, or just more balanced food to feed larger muscle response?

            Thanks guys!

            E

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            • #7
              Originally posted by EMC67 View Post
              Sounds Good. Since I have spent so much time really seeking results and seeing results in lean muscle - I just didnt want to see the pendulum swing to fast or hard in the opposite direction when wanting to gain some size back. Going from 200 to 180, seeing ripped definition but feeling so small as compared to the round muscle I used to have.

              So to make sure - to gain the level of protein should be held at least at 1g per body weight? So 180g for a 180 pound person. more if more size, or just more balanced food to feed larger muscle response?

              Thanks guys!

              E
              i'd say yes. other people might say something different. i would aim for 1g to 1.5g per lb of bodyweight in order to gain. and probably the same for carbs. fill in the rest with fat. that's just me though. you might hear different opinions from other people. things obviously change up when calorie and/or macro cycling. but the protein should remain constant no matter what

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              • #8
                No, it's around 1g protein per pound of lean body mass, not per pound of body weight. Estimate you bodyfat percentage if you don't know it and subtract it from your body weight and that's LBM. me, I'm 177 and probably about 17% BF, so about 30lb fat, 147lb LBM, and I shoot for around 100g protein per day. If I calculated it on body weight (177 to 200+g protein per day?!) I'd be way overdoing protein which is problematic and wasteful. Hope you see this, and please read Sisson or other authorities on the topic before trying to overload protein.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tom B-D View Post
                  No, it's around 1g protein per pound of lean body mass, not per pound of body weight. Estimate you bodyfat percentage if you don't know it and subtract it from your body weight and that's LBM. me, I'm 177 and probably about 17% BF, so about 30lb fat, 147lb LBM, and I shoot for around 100g protein per day. If I calculated it on body weight (177 to 200+g protein per day?!) I'd be way overdoing protein which is problematic and wasteful. Hope you see this, and please read Sisson or other authorities on the topic before trying to overload protein.
                  sisson isn't exactly an authority on the subject. what you do may work for you. congrats. but it isn't the best formula for muscle growth. when you're trying to remain anabolic and grow muscle tissue, you need to do whatever it takes to stay in the anabolic state and provide the building blocks that your damaged muscles need. 1g per lb of bodyweight is a good start for that. people may even need more.

                  question, if you only eat 100g of protein daily, what do you eat? that's only 400 calories. you must eat a ton of fat and carbs to make your caloric requirements. one might argue that you are "overloading" on fat or even carbs. neither of which are necessary in high doses at all

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tom B-D View Post
                    No, it's around 1g protein per pound of lean body mass, not per pound of body weight. Estimate you bodyfat percentage if you don't know it and subtract it from your body weight and that's LBM. me, I'm 177 and probably about 17% BF, so about 30lb fat, 147lb LBM, and I shoot for around 100g protein per day. If I calculated it on body weight (177 to 200+g protein per day?!) I'd be way overdoing protein which is problematic and wasteful. Hope you see this, and please read Sisson or other authorities on the topic before trying to overload protein.
                    Apart from theoretical considerations, what problems does this cause you?

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                    • #11
                      True, but Sisson goes to the source--to the actual authorities! I just went back and looked at the period when I was tracking food and I was getting 100-120g protein/day, with a macro breakdown (calories) of about 60-65% fat, 15-20% protein, 15-20% carbs. I had to consciously eat more protein because when I started tracking I was around 75g/day (that's why I tracked). It helped me put on muscle--I'm really happy that at 49y.o. I got these kind of results.

                      But I hear you--a bodybuilder would be looking at it differently, and I haven't read what those authorities say for many years. I have read, though, that if you're not working out really hard and you have tons of protein, it breaks down like carbs in the body--I'm sure I'm not describing this well (I'm certainly not an authority!), and there is the issue of overworking the kidneys with excess protein. For me, the .7-1g protein per pound of LBM worked, and I would have had to eat unpalatable amounts of expensive protein to get into the zone you're talking about. Imagine, at 177, 1.5g/# would be 265g protein/day. At around 80g protein per pound of beef, that's over 7 pounds of meat...or lets say 3 steaks and 20 eggs...or maybe a couple of salmon, a few burgers, some steaks, and a bunch of eggs EVERY DAY. I couldn't do it.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tom B-D View Post
                        True, but Sisson goes to the source--to the actual authorities! I just went back and looked at the period when I was tracking food and I was getting 100-120g protein/day, with a macro breakdown (calories) of about 60-65% fat, 15-20% protein, 15-20% carbs. I had to consciously eat more protein because when I started tracking I was around 75g/day (that's why I tracked). It helped me put on muscle--I'm really happy that at 49y.o. I got these kind of results.

                        But I hear you--a bodybuilder would be looking at it differently, and I haven't read what those authorities say for many years. I have read, though, that if you're not working out really hard and you have tons of protein, it breaks down like carbs in the body--I'm sure I'm not describing this well (I'm certainly not an authority!), and there is the issue of overworking the kidneys with excess protein. For me, the .7-1g protein per pound of LBM worked, and I would have had to eat unpalatable amounts of expensive protein to get into the zone you're talking about. Imagine, at 177, 1.5g/# would be 265g protein/day. At around 80g protein per pound of beef, that's over 7 pounds of meat...or lets say 3 steaks and 20 eggs...or maybe a couple of salmon, a few burgers, some steaks, and a bunch of eggs EVERY DAY. I couldn't do it.
                        the OP is interested in gaining mass and heavy weight training. that's why I recommended the 1g per lb of bodyweight. i'm the same weight as you and I lift heavy and work out hard and stick to the 1g per lb of bodyweight. its not that hard honestly. 6 eggs and some bacon or sausage with my breakfast. a can of tuna or something like that with my veg/salad for lunch. 10-16oz of meat for dinner. some nuts and occasional dairy. its not set in stone, but it gets me close to that requirement.

                        adding a whey shake or 2 would easily give you the extra 100 grams by using 2 scoops in each shake. its really not that difficult to hit 1.5 grams per lb of bodyweight at all.

                        your math is fuzzy too. if 1 lb of beef is 80 grams, then 3lbs would be 240 grams of protein. not 7lbs.
                        Last edited by not on the rug; 05-24-2013, 08:24 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tom B-D View Post
                          There is the issue of overworking the kidneys with excess protein.
                          This is a theoretical problem which has been shown not to happen in people with normal, healthy kidneys. While people with certain types of kidney damage need to limit their intake of protein, kidney damage itself is not caused by excess protein intake.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                            the OP is interested in gaining mass and heavy weight training. that's why I recommended the 1g per lb of bodyweight. i'm the same weight as you and I lift heavy and work out hard and stick to the 1g per lb of bodyweight. its not that hard honestly. 6 eggs and some bacon or sausage with my breakfast. a can of tuna or something like that with my veg/salad for lunch. 10-16oz of meat for dinner. some nuts and occasional dairy. its not set in stone, but it gets me close to that requirement.

                            adding a whey shake or 2 would easily give you the extra 100 grams by using 2 scoops in each shake. its really not that difficult to hit 1.5 grams per lb of bodyweight at all.

                            your math is fuzzy too. if 1 lb of beef is 80 grams, then 3lbs would be 240 grams or protein. not 7lbs.
                            Yes to all this. I've been using NOW Foods WPI, which I bought in a 10 lb bag, and have been mixing into large glasses of whole milk.

                            Also, I ate 1 lb of 85/15 ground beef Post-workout last night, with about 3 oz. cheddar cheese over 1.5 medium baked potatoes with some cheap hot sauce. So that's damn near 100 g protein right there. And I only weigh 155 lbs.

                            Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                            This is a theoretical problem which has been shown not to happen in people with normal, healthy kidneys. While people with certain types of kidney damage need to limit their intake of protein, kidney damage itself is not caused by excess protein intake.
                            QFT.
                            The Champagne of Beards

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                            • #15
                              Right on. Yeah, my fuzzy math! I had started writing it as number of steaks, not pounds of meat, but 7 steaks at .5 to .75 lb. wouldn't even be right. Fuzzy head this morning...not enough protein?

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