Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Where is the energy???

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Haddasah7 View Post
    I just finished Mark Sisson's 21 Day Primal Blueprint challenge and I feel worse than when I started. ...

    I keep my carbs on average 55 per day. ...
    The cut-off point for going into ketosis seems to be around 50 g per day. You're around that -- in fact, you may be under it, depending on how you measured, since some counters include fiber, which is non-digestible carbohydrate, so that it doesn't really count.

    Here is what i think your problem is. If you're going to become keto-adapted, so that your energy needs are met in a different way, then 21 days may not be long enough for the adjustment. Something like 4 to 6 weeks is often needed.

    Om the other hand, if you merely want to reduce carbohydrate, but still keep the kind of metabolism you had before, then you need to eat more carbohydrate. From the figures you gave, your weight looks fine for your height and your body fat percentage looks right, too. So you'd be in what Mark calls the "maintenance phase" for carbohydrate consumption. That's going to mean something more like 100 grams of carbohydrate a day -- see Mark's Carbohydrate Curve:

    How many carbs should I eat each day? | Mark's Daily Apple

    So, where's this energy I'm suppose to have?? Where's the improved sleep?? Where's the "feeling the best they've ever felt"??
    You would seem to be in-between at the moment. You either need to increase your carbohydrate consumption or wait to adapt. The prime problem seems to be the energetic requirements of the brain. Your muscles and other organs will run on fat quite happily; the brain can't. It must run on either glucose or ketones. If you want it to run on ketones, you have to wait for your biochemistry to adapt -- which takes time -- if you want it to run on glucose, you need to give it enough. It needs about 600 kcal a day, which is not negligible, and you can soon dip into that if you're not eating a lot and exercise at all briskly.

    As one low-carb researcher says, you can be on the mainland or you can be on holiday in Hawaii. But you can't stop the plane half-way and land. There are "islands of safety".

    Comment


    • #17
      Another key to energy, which I'm hesitant to mention, is natural sources of iodine. Seaweed twice a week goes a long way toward maintaining thyroid function. While I think it's ridiculous to expect miracles, there is a legitimate use for iodine in the body, and if you're low-carbing it, it's even more crucial. Some oysters will help, too.

      I'm also going to support the addition of more carbohydrate on a regular basis. I'll go VLC for a few days a week, then hit the sweet potatoes for the rest of the time.
      Crohn's, doing SCD

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Lewis View Post
        The cut-off point for going into ketosis seems to be around 50 g per day.
        It might be for a small person who is almost completely sedentary.

        Many of us find that we go into ketosis daily eating 100-200 g carbs per day.
        F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by paleo-bunny View Post
          It might be for a small person who is almost completely sedentary.

          Many of us find that we go into ketosis daily eating 100-200 g carbs per day.
          Under 50 g is the figure according to low carb researchers who have worked with (literally) thousands of subjects in clinical settings.

          Of course "many of us" may not know how to determine whether "we" are in ketosis or not.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Lewis View Post
            Under 50 g is the figure according to low carb researchers who have worked with (literally) thousands of subjects in clinical settings.

            Of course "many of us" may not know how to determine whether "we" are in ketosis or not.
            I know - it's very obvious, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone of your limited scientific understanding struggles with it.

            I also know that my muscles burn glycogen during activity. This is a basic fact that most schoolchildren learn in biology classes.

            50 g is a mickey-mouse rounded figure, and obviously has to be scaled to body size, BMR, and activity levels. Any fool can see that.
            Last edited by paleo-bunny; 06-08-2012, 02:36 AM.
            F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

            Comment


            • #21
              Paleo-bunny, would you please elaborate on this? I have no background in science and find it difficult to assimilate all the information I am getting from all kinds of sources. I know I don't have to be in ketosis 24/7 for the PB to work. I know ketosis can kick in when the body needs it to, as Mark says, if a moderate amount of carbs is consumed, but the body is still in fat-burning mode. I know it can vary between individuals, so 50 g/day is by no means an absolute amount. But apart from ketone breath or using ketone sticks, is there any other way of knowing that or when one is in ketosis? And is there a way of knowing how much glycogen is consumed and if one is depleted? My workouts are modest, I never feel really hungry afterwards, just slightly tired. Shouldn't I be ravenous, if I had indeed used up my glycogen?

              And one more thing: the Scandinavian LCHF movement "preaches" very low-carb (20 g/day) and they say that the body just needs a little time to adapt and then athletes and anyone who wishes to exercise can perform as good or even better on VLC, no extra carbs are needed. What do you say to that?

              I really value your posts on the forums, so please shed some light on these issues, when you find the time.

              Comment


              • #22
                I've noticed an uptick in hunger since the weather warmed up, just as I have been saying for months. If you have been doing LC or VLC the past few months and it's not working anymore, it could be seasonal and you just need to listen to your body and go ahead and have some carbs. Go buy some seasonal fruit.
                Fats are important also- maybe add coconut oil & be sure you are eating some butter daily, it contains essential minerals. That I think is the reason so many people get tired on paleo/primal, they eat the diet thinking it's magic without understanding nutrition/how the body works.
                Last edited by fiercehunter; 06-08-2012, 07:15 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sol y Sombra View Post
                  Paleo-bunny, would you please elaborate on this? I have no background in science and find it difficult to assimilate all the information I am getting from all kinds of sources. I know I don't have to be in ketosis 24/7 for the PB to work. I know ketosis can kick in when the body needs it to, as Mark says, if a moderate amount of carbs is consumed, but the body is still in fat-burning mode. I know it can vary between individuals, so 50 g/day is by no means an absolute amount. But apart from ketone breath or using ketone sticks, is there any other way of knowing that or when one is in ketosis? And is there a way of knowing how much glycogen is consumed and if one is depleted? My workouts are modest, I never feel really hungry afterwards, just slightly tired. Shouldn't I be ravenous, if I had indeed used up my glycogen?
                  The ketone breath is a reliable enough indicator for me and typically lasts about 10 minutes or so. It always happens exactly when expected, mid to late afternoon. I eat most of my carbs in a late evening meal.

                  Going into ketosis does not necessarily indicate that glycogen stores in the muscles are depleted or near depletion, but I believe one can infer that liver glycogen stores are near depletion. Glycogen levels in the muscles can be tracked through weight fluctuations (1 g glycogen is stored with ~ 4 g water), that's if weight doesn't fluctuate for other reasons (e.g. due to fluid retention elsewhere). Also by how tight your clothes feel - I can track this to a degree by how tight my jeans feel on my legs - there's quite a big fluctuation there as most of my cardio is weight-bearing. Still muscle glycogen depletion is not an easy thing to measure - in my case I get fluid retention from burning body fat and exercise, thus if I don't exercise for a few days on a calorie surplus my weight actually goes down temporarily!

                  If you're not really hungry after workouts that's a good sign. You won't have used up all your glycogen if it was only a modest workout. I burn an estimated 100-120 g of carbs (and about 50-60 g fat) in a workout and don't feel ravenous afterwards. The proportion of glycogen to fat burned in a workout depends on the activity. I do a mix of yoga, weights, sprints and low-level cardio and estimate about 50:50 fat:glycogen burnt by calories.

                  And one more thing: the Scandinavian LCHF movement "preaches" very low-carb (20 g/day) and they say that the body just needs a little time to adapt and then athletes and anyone who wishes to exercise can perform as good or even better on VLC, no extra carbs are needed. What do you say to that?
                  While I'm not going to dispute that this works well for some folk, it wouldn't work for me. I believe there are different metabolic types. I do well on moderate starch and being active. It seems a lot of women do best in this moderate carb range of 100 - 200 g a day, depending on their goals. I tend to need fewer carbs during the summer but I still eat within the moderate range - yet I am more active and that's when I can lose weight easily.

                  As I have seasonal affective disorder and body clock issues, I don't want to risk mucking up my tryptophan/serotonin/melatonin balance, and carbs are important for production of serotonin by the gut. Carbs have also helped me build a lot of muscle when timed post-workout, and help me sleep deeply and efficiently.

                  I really value your posts on the forums, so please shed some light on these issues, when you find the time.
                  Thanks - that's very sweet of you. Hope this helps.
                  F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thank you, that was very useful information!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Guys, I want to thank each and every one of you for your thoughtful and informative replies. I did, the past two days have some baked sweet potato "fries" with my dinner and feel a bit better.

                      @ rosencrantz1 - I will check that book out as soon as I can - Thank you!

                      I was just hoping to switch over to a more fat-burning metabolism, with the increased energy! But, it seems that my body is going kicking and screaming into it and is taking it's own good time with it.

                      It really is amazing the extreme fatigue I've been experiencing since eating this way...

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X