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  • #31
    Originally posted by JoS View Post
    Hello Dr Bork

    I can honestly say my food choices are not at all whats causing the problem. I eat 95% paleo/primal. The only thing that I do allow myself is two pieces of lindt dark chocolate 85% maybe twice a week. I never ever eat anything packaged, fried, processed I actually detest it. I never eat sugar, apart from the chocolate. I can be known as 'paleo police' that is how focused I am on being super healthy and fit. You know everyone is different and eating fats for some people may not be the right thing for them.
    Didn't say you were eating crap food. However, too much of anything is not a good way to go. Even if you're eating too many fruits, sweet potatoes, etc, there's going to eventually be issues.
    --Trish (Bork)
    TROPICAL TRADITIONS REFERRAL # 7625207
    http://pregnantdiabetic.blogspot.com
    FOOD PORN BLOG! http://theprimaljunkfoodie.blogspot.com

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    • #32
      OMG - this is my worst fear! I am just starting (literally -starting today! lol ) and am wigged out about adding fat to my diet - i even did lowish fat when i was following atkins.... of course i didn't have the best success with that so maybe the fat WAS the missing bit? I also HATE the idea of keeping my carbs at 25 or below, the whole reason i am attracted to this plan is the vegetable base on the food pyramid!
      Sorry i don't have any words of wisdom for you....

      Still, I get your frustration JoS and hope you can find the answer for yourself!

      Comment


      • #33
        I have a similar metabolism/exercise/diet profile to the OP, and I also put on a spare tire after three months of Primal. I've now lost it, and it came down to two things: don't overdo the coconut oil (or whichever part of your diet you're sensitive to- dairy?) and don't eat low-carb. When I dropped the coconut oil to 2-3 T a week (from 2-3 T/DAY), my inflammation went down, my poochy tummy flattened out, and my face lost the new puffiness.

        Upping my carb percentage was the key to making primal work for me. I did need a low-carb period to retrain my body to look beyond carbs for energy. But once I wasn't screamingly hungry and could begin to stretch meals, LC was a disaster on workout days. Particularly if you heft weights/people or do explosive movements, you've got to replenish glycogen so you'll be ready to go the next day- takes me ~50-100g carbs. If not, I find myself getting lethargic, eating copious amounts of fat, and gaining weight fairly quickly. I currently sit around 25-25-50 P-C-F on workout days, 25-15-60 on non-workout days.

        I understand the frustration, and gaining weight if you were already at your ideal is clearly a sign something needs tending. But the fundamentals of no packages, no sugars, no grains/legumes are solid, and feel more free to tweak exactly which foods you eat and in what percentages until you're happy. If I were you, I'd try replicating my prior diet in macros and timing, just primal now.

        Comment


        • #34
          Lots of varied angles on this forum like always
          Your goals and where you're currently at seperates you from a lot of the other folks here who want to lose a relatively large amount of weight. I truly believe that the primal diet and lifestyle brings everyone close to optimal health and their setpoint bodyfat %. For women this can be as high as 20-25% bodyfat, because from an evolutionary perspective being ripped as a female is going to be detrimental for child-bearing and milk-production as these things require a lot out of a female's energy stores. The average man isn't going to reach sub-10% bodyfat simply eating primally either.

          If you wish to surpass this setpoint you need to be nifty and optimize your diet and exercise to manipulate fat storage. You had success previously by limiting your fat intake (probably overall calories aswell as a result) and this is certainly one way of doing it although not very satisfying and it probably won't supply you with optimal amounts of fat-soluble vitamins. There are also other things you can experiment with but I won't get into those here.

          A better way of doing it is through cyclical dieting aka eating a good amount of fat some days and a low amount of fat on other days which isn't as aggressive but easier to stick to long term. There are several protocols that follow this concept (anabolic diet, cyclical ketogenic diet, leangains to name a few), and they prescribe low carb consumption on high fat days to limit their insulin levels which can cause a lot of fat storage when fat consumption is high, but also higher carb consumption on low fat days in part to make up for some of the slashed fat calories, since eating nothing but protein isn't easy, but also to upregulate leptin and fill up glycogen stores.

          I think a cyclical diet like this would help you reach your goals because
          A. you're already really strict and slashing a little butter and dark chocolate isn't realistically going to change anything.
          B. you've had success limiting your fat intake (only you did it in an unsustainable manner).
          C. you're doing crossfit 4 times a week which demands a lot of glycogen, only you're eating chronically low carb so your cortisol levels are chronically high to supply enough glucose through gluconeogenesis and making you more susceptible to storing fat. 150-400g of primal starchy carbs, depending on frequency of said carb consumption and frequency of training, will be much more efficient at supplying fuel for your workouts. Taking an entire week off crossfit and HIT and then ramping training frequency and/or intensity up gradually will also help get your cortisol down much quicker.

          To anyone misinterpreting this, I am not recommending a low fat high carb diet ALL THE TIME, nor am I recommending abandoning any major primal principles. OP should still avoid grains, sugar, processed foods, eat a lot of varied vegetables, spices, fruit, meat and seafood. OP should still walk, play, sprint and lift heavy things, only not add a lot of fat to meals and opt for leaner cuts on certain days and eat a good dose of safe starch (yams, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, white rice).

          My 200.c that I spent ages typing so feel free to critize it unless you haven't researched the topics / are a cultist or whatever.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Pandadude View Post
            Lots of varied angles on this forum like always
            Your goals and where you're currently at seperates you from a lot of the other folks here who want to lose a relatively large amount of weight. I truly believe that the primal diet and lifestyle brings everyone close to optimal health and their setpoint bodyfat %. For women this can be as high as 20-25% bodyfat, because from an evolutionary perspective being ripped as a female is going to be detrimental for child-bearing and milk-production as these things require a lot out of a female's energy stores. The average man isn't going to reach sub-10% bodyfat simply eating primally either.

            If you wish to surpass this setpoint you need to be nifty and optimize your diet and exercise to manipulate fat storage. You had success previously by limiting your fat intake (probably overall calories aswell as a result) and this is certainly one way of doing it although not very satisfying and it probably won't supply you with optimal amounts of fat-soluble vitamins. There are also other things you can experiment with but I won't get into those here.

            A better way of doing it is through cyclical dieting aka eating a good amount of fat some days and a low amount of fat on other days which isn't as aggressive but easier to stick to long term. There are several protocols that follow this concept (anabolic diet, cyclical ketogenic diet, leangains to name a few), and they prescribe low carb consumption on high fat days to limit their insulin levels which can cause a lot of fat storage when fat consumption is high, but also higher carb consumption on low fat days in part to make up for some of the slashed fat calories, since eating nothing but protein isn't easy, but also to upregulate leptin and fill up glycogen stores.

            I think a cyclical diet like this would help you reach your goals because
            A. you're already really strict and slashing a little butter and dark chocolate isn't realistically going to change anything.
            B. you've had success limiting your fat intake (only you did it in an unsustainable manner).
            C. you're doing crossfit 4 times a week which demands a lot of glycogen, only you're eating chronically low carb so your cortisol levels are chronically high to supply enough glucose through gluconeogenesis and making you more susceptible to storing fat. 150-400g of primal starchy carbs, depending on frequency of said carb consumption and frequency of training, will be much more efficient at supplying fuel for your workouts. Taking an entire week off crossfit and HIT and then ramping training frequency and/or intensity up gradually will also help get your cortisol down much quicker.

            To anyone misinterpreting this, I am not recommending a low fat high carb diet ALL THE TIME, nor am I recommending abandoning any major primal principles. OP should still avoid grains, sugar, processed foods, eat a lot of varied vegetables, spices, fruit, meat and seafood. OP should still walk, play, sprint and lift heavy things, only not add a lot of fat to meals and opt for leaner cuts on certain days and eat a good dose of safe starch (yams, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, white rice).

            My 200.c that I spent ages typing so feel free to critize it unless you haven't researched the topics / are a cultist or whatever.
            Thank you so much for your advice. I really like the sound of this. Can you offer me more advice on how to do it. From what I can understand when I train CF I eat high carb/low fat and on my non training days I eat high fat/low carb. Is this correct or do I alternate the days of high carb/low carb despite what I am training.

            Also how much fat and carb should I be having, what is the ratio?

            Thank you for your advice

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by JitzGrrl View Post
              I have a similar metabolism/exercise/diet profile to the OP, and I also put on a spare tire after three months of Primal. I've now lost it, and it came down to two things: don't overdo the coconut oil (or whichever part of your diet you're sensitive to- dairy?) and don't eat low-carb. When I dropped the coconut oil to 2-3 T a week (from 2-3 T/DAY), my inflammation went down, my poochy tummy flattened out, and my face lost the new puffiness.

              Upping my carb percentage was the key to making primal work for me. I did need a low-carb period to retrain my body to look beyond carbs for energy. But once I wasn't screamingly hungry and could begin to stretch meals, LC was a disaster on workout days. Particularly if you heft weights/people or do explosive movements, you've got to replenish glycogen so you'll be ready to go the next day- takes me ~50-100g carbs. If not, I find myself getting lethargic, eating copious amounts of fat, and gaining weight fairly quickly. I currently sit around 25-25-50 P-C-F on workout days, 25-15-60 on non-workout days.

              I understand the frustration, and gaining weight if you were already at your ideal is clearly a sign something needs tending. But the fundamentals of no packages, no sugars, no grains/legumes are solid, and feel more free to tweak exactly which foods you eat and in what percentages until you're happy. If I were you, I'd try replicating my prior diet in macros and timing, just primal now.
              Thanks for your advice, it is really frustrating. Can you tell me more about what you did. a typical day of eating when you worked out and not worked out.

              Thanks look forward to hearing from you

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by JoS View Post
                Can you offer me more advice on how to do it. From what I can understand when I train CF I eat high carb/low fat and on my non training days I eat high fat/low carb. Is this correct or do I alternate the days of high carb/low carb despite what I am training.

                Also how much fat and carb should I be having, what is the ratio?

                Thank you for your advice
                Well as mentioned there are several ways to go about it. You could have 100g of starch in the next 1-2 meals after every training session (so 4 times a week on your current schedule). Alternatively you could have 200g of starch after every other training session (2 times a week) or even 400g once a week etc. Whichever you pick the starch values are just ballpark figures btw and should be tinkered. Having the majority of carbs after a workout is optimal due to increased insulin sensitivity, but this persists for hours so you don't need to pack baked potatoes to the gym or anything, just have them the next time you sit down and have a real meal.

                Since you probably have elevated cortisol and because of the intense nature of crossfit I would suggest the carb refeeds 2-4 times a week, experiment and see which you prefer.

                The macronutrient ratios aren't definite because they depend on your total calorie intake while the actual macronutrient values should be somewhat fixed.

                Doing 100g of carbs + 1g protein/lb of bw = 400 + 160*4 = 1040kcals. Your fat intake then depends on how big an energy deficit you are trying to create (yes energy balance is going to matter when trying to surpass your setpoint imo), but most "gurus" recommend maintenance or hypercaloric intake on workout days and . With your walking and crossfit causing somewhat of a deficit themselves 2000-3000 calories is probably good or 120-200g fat, but I haven't factored in non-starchy vegs and fruit here. Anyways this example could turn out to be 20/30/50%carbs/protein/fat.
                If you were doing 200g carbs instead it would end up more like 40/30/30%, and with 400g carb refeeds you will want to really minimize your fat intake.

                On low carb days total carb intake 0-75g, similar protein as on high carb days, fat making up the rest could be 5/35/60 or something.

                Really though, being this specific on macros can overcomplicate things, and once you know the carb content of your carb sources you might be fine just.. eating vegetables and some fruit everyday, meat everyday opting for leaner cuts or fish on days where you are doing high carb, having your cream in tea + butter + dark chocolate on your low carb days and having a small-large serving of starchy carbs on high carb days depending on frequency of high carb days.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pandadude View Post
                  Well as mentioned there are several ways to go about it. You could have 100g of starch in the next 1-2 meals after every training session (so 4 times a week on your current schedule). Alternatively you could have 200g of starch after every other training session (2 times a week) or even 400g once a week etc. Whichever you pick the starch values are just ballpark figures btw and should be tinkered. Having the majority of carbs after a workout is optimal due to increased insulin sensitivity, but this persists for hours so you don't need to pack baked potatoes to the gym or anything, just have them the next time you sit down and have a real meal.

                  Since you probably have elevated cortisol and because of the intense nature of crossfit I would suggest the carb refeeds 2-4 times a week, experiment and see which you prefer.

                  The macronutrient ratios aren't definite because they depend on your total calorie intake while the actual macronutrient values should be somewhat fixed.

                  Doing 100g of carbs + 1g protein/lb of bw = 400 + 160*4 = 1040kcals. Your fat intake then depends on how big an energy deficit you are trying to create (yes energy balance is going to matter when trying to surpass your setpoint imo), but most "gurus" recommend maintenance or hypercaloric intake on workout days and . With your walking and crossfit causing somewhat of a deficit themselves 2000-3000 calories is probably good or 120-200g fat, but I haven't factored in non-starchy vegs and fruit here. Anyways this example could turn out to be 20/30/50%carbs/protein/fat.
                  If you were doing 200g carbs instead it would end up more like 40/30/30%, and with 400g carb refeeds you will want to really minimize your fat intake.

                  On low carb days total carb intake 0-75g, similar protein as on high carb days, fat making up the rest could be 5/35/60 or something.

                  Really though, being this specific on macros can overcomplicate things, and once you know the carb content of your carb sources you might be fine just.. eating vegetables and some fruit everyday, meat everyday opting for leaner cuts or fish on days where you are doing high carb, having your cream in tea + butter + dark chocolate on your low carb days and having a small-large serving of starchy carbs on high carb days depending on frequency of high carb days.
                  This is great! Since reading your post I have been on the website of leangains. Very interesting. What do you think of this?

                  Here is what I am planning on doing to change up everything and see if I can lose the last bit of Body fat

                  day one: strength
                  day two: Metcon
                  Day three: Strength
                  Day four Off
                  Day five Metcon
                  Day six strength/metcon
                  Day seven off

                  When I train strength will be compound only. I usually train around 4pm daily

                  So I like the idea of carbs post workout, so I could have carbs such as sweet potato pre and post workout with protein and minimal fat and second post workout meal fibrous veg and protein?

                  and rest days lower carbs so no starchy veg and protein, fibrous veg and fats?

                  I hope this makes sense

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Sorry but did you not read my suggestion of dropping the workouts for a short period? Seems absurd to add another training day when excess training is part of the problem, coupled with carb deprivation of course, but simply adding in some carbs wont instantly fix the issue you've built up.

                    Carbs pre and post workout 5 days a week (10 carb meals spread over a week) will also probably hinder you from using your stored fat as fuel compared to less frequent consumption, which is why a lot of cyclical ketogenic diets (The CKD, Ultimate Diet 2.0 for example) use one refeed a week. These programs are focused on fat loss while preserving lean muscle with strength training however, not on crossfit performance or on being an athlete.

                    Leangains is focused on increasing muscle mass while limiting fat gain, again not on crossfit performance or being an athlete. I am unsure of whether intermittent fasting would be beneficial or detrimental where you're at aswell, so I wouldn't suggest making things more complicated with it until you begin to see progress with your bodycomposition and you have the first puzzle figured out.

                    You have to decide for yourself which is most important for the moment, because maintaining your current workout regimen will probably hinder fat loss while decreasing workout frequency might limit your gains in the box. You might eventually lose the fat without changing your training by just adding carbs, and taking a break from your routine might benefit your training in the long run by preventing burnout.
                    Can't see the future though so ultimately it is up for you to decide, and some trial and error is probably inevetable.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pandadude View Post
                      Sorry but did you not read my suggestion of dropping the workouts for a short period? Seems absurd to add another training day when excess training is part of the problem, coupled with carb deprivation of course, but simply adding in some carbs wont instantly fix the issue you've built up.

                      Carbs pre and post workout 5 days a week (10 carb meals spread over a week) will also probably hinder you from using your stored fat as fuel compared to less frequent consumption, which is why a lot of cyclical ketogenic diets (The CKD, Ultimate Diet 2.0 for example) use one refeed a week. These programs are focused on fat loss while preserving lean muscle with strength training however, not on crossfit performance or on being an athlete.

                      Leangains is focused on increasing muscle mass while limiting fat gain, again not on crossfit performance or being an athlete. I am unsure of whether intermittent fasting would be beneficial or detrimental where you're at aswell, so I wouldn't suggest making things more complicated with it until you begin to see progress with your bodycomposition and you have the first puzzle figured out.

                      You have to decide for yourself which is most important for the moment, because maintaining your current workout regimen will probably hinder fat loss while decreasing workout frequency might limit your gains in the box. You might eventually lose the fat without changing your training by just adding carbs, and taking a break from your routine might benefit your training in the long run by preventing burnout.
                      Can't see the future though so ultimately it is up for you to decide, and some trial and error is probably inevetable.
                      Hi, yep sorry I got a bit confused. I have just re read all your post. I want to change my training as yes your right it is obviously not working for me.

                      So new training and sticky to four x week with walking no more than 45m-1hr 3-5 x week

                      Strength x 3 workouts a week focus on compound exercises
                      1 x HIIT which I thought could be a metcon from CF

                      On the days that I train I thought I would re-feed with starchy carbs, such as sweet potato. I need to work out how much carbs sweet pot has. So this makes it 4 x week of re-feeding. is this ok do you think? not to much? I get totally confused with all the macronutrients etc. It helps me when I think, ok on training days just eat carbs post workout and non training days drop the carbs and eat fibrous veg???

                      Just to clarify: Post workout meal on training days is carb re-feeding + protein and a drizzle of fat for taste. protein will be lean such as chicken, fish, tuna, kangaroo

                      I only really eat three times a day, if I do snack it was on macadamia nuts, so this morning I had for breakfast 2 cups curry kangaroo mince with grated carrot, zucchini and chopped bok choy, vegies would of added up to 1/2-1 cup.

                      Lunch which is normally around 12-1pm tuna salad

                      I workout about 4pm

                      Do I still keep my pre workout meal just to fibrous veg and protein and fat still low

                      than have post workout meal which includes the starchy carbs 5pm

                      and than another meal 2 hours later? does this second meal still contain carbs? 7-7.30pm

                      on rest days, drop the sweet potato and have fibrous veg and protein and up fat a bit more, so maybe I could have the macadamia nuts?

                      I am once of these people who has to get it step by step correct. I hate doing things 50%. You have great advice and have really helped.

                      thanks again

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        i havnt read this whole thread, so apologies if anyone else has pointed this out, but from what im reading i dont expect so.
                        fat around your middle is healthy, especially in middle age, studies have shown that people who carry a reasonable amount of fat can better cope with stress and illness, it has even been shown to prolong life by a number of years.
                        it seems likely to me that the paleo-diet is working very well for you, fat storage is a natural function and you body is simply saving a wee bit of energy against a rainy day of no food or sickness where you cant eat.
                        a few years ago i caught the dreaded swine flu(probably, i didnt seek medical help so we will never really know) for 3 days i lay in bed coughing continuously, and i do mean continuously, every second breath at best, i saw red, white, grey, yellow and green phlegm, i didnt eat, i did manage to drink water, but it was extremely painful to do so and trips to relieve myself and replenish my water were harrowing, nobody looked after me and i couldnt prepare any food, i did towards the end manage a bowl of 2min noodles with some frozen vegies, by the time i emerged i had lost most of my muscle and all of my fat, i actually got comments that i looked good from female friends, haha(im not overweight but i have a paunch).
                        i think if i had been skinny i would not have survived that ordeal without constant nursing.
                        so i consider that proof that fat is actually healthy, -having said that id love to have a flat stomach again .. sigh

                        what are your reasons for concern about gaining fat?
                        if its simply health i suggest you forget it, if its vanity... as you were.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by JoS View Post

                          1. So new training and sticky to four x week with walking no more than 45m-1hr 3-5 x week
                          Strength x 3 workouts a week focus on compound exercises
                          1 x HIIT which I thought could be a metcon from CF

                          2. On the days that I train I thought I would re-feed with starchy carbs, such as sweet potato. I need to work out how much carbs sweet pot has. So this makes it 4 x week of re-feeding. is this ok do you think? not to much? I get totally confused with all the macronutrients etc. It helps me when I think, ok on training days just eat carbs post workout and non training days drop the carbs and eat fibrous veg???

                          3. Just to clarify: Post workout meal on training days is carb re-feeding + protein and a drizzle of fat for taste. protein will be lean such as chicken, fish, tuna, kangaroo

                          4. Do I still keep my pre workout meal just to fibrous veg and protein and fat still low

                          5. than have post workout meal which includes the starchy carbs 5pm and than another meal 2 hours later? does this second meal still contain carbs? 7-7.30pm

                          6. on rest days, drop the sweet potato and have fibrous veg and protein and up fat a bit more, so maybe I could have the macadamia nuts?
                          Added some numbers to your post and am gonna answer them one at a time.
                          1. I would still recommend an entire weeks layoff :P but other than that your training sounds reasonable as long as you make sure your strength training doesn't become a metcon neglecting rest and doing high volume/too many exercises.

                          2. I think this sounds good with 4 x a week. Your idea of meal compositon is correct

                          3. Correct

                          4. Yes I don't think there is any reason to have carbs pre-workout if you had sufficient carbs after your last training session, certainly not for weight lifting. For metcons? It could benefit your perforance with a little extra carb, but again I wouldn't recommend playing with it just yet. Fat in this pre workout meal could be relatively high or low depending on the fat content of the rest of the days' meals as long as you reach your desired fat intake at the end of the day.

                          5. Its up to you whether to have 2 meals pre or 2 meals post workout. If you opt for 2 post workout meals then again your goal is to just have the desired amount of carbs within these 2 post workout meals. So if you had all the carbs you need in your first post workout meal then you won't need any in the 2nd and vice-versa.

                          6. Sure just be aware that nuts contain a noticeable amount of carbs aswell but as long as you stay under your limit.
                          Last edited by Pandadude; 10-24-2011, 05:08 AM.

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