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Calories - do they really count?

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  • #31
    1



    Ummm.... The first study had nothing to do with BMR and the second had nothing to do with protein.


    I don't think the debate is on the same subject.


    I don't think you will find any studies that have food effecting BMR. TEE for sure but not BMR.

    Don't be a paleotard...

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...torage-qa.html

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rn-fat-qa.html

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

    Comment


    • #32
      1



      Of course calories count. You can gain weight eating fat and meat only, albeit not as much as one could eating carbs because meat and fat satiate so well. But if you really, really overfed and force fed yourself on a meat and fat diet you could get fat. Protein has a satiating and thermogenic effect also which reduces calories.


      In the end though, calories do count and you can get lean on any diet if the calories are right and your hormones are normal.

      Comment


      • #33
        1



        chima_p: I explained that the first study involved DIT, not BMR. Related but not the same, admittedly.


        The second study contained this statement, albeit referring to a different study: "Brown et al.(2) have also reported a slight seasonal change in basal metabolic rate while studying the Eskimos. Rodahl(3) attributed this basal metabolic change to their high-protein diet rather than to cold exposure. This high-protein diet would increase basal metabolic rate via the higher thermic effect of feeding needed to digest the protein. "


        I should have pointed out that I was referring to this statement in particular and not the study referenced by the article itself. My mistake - I was in a hurry this morning when posting.

        Comment


        • #34
          1

          [quote]

          Of course calories count. You can gain weight eating fat and meat only
          </blockquote>


          Do you have any proof that this is the case, or are you guessing?


          The evidence shows otherwise:

          http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/sutra31429.php&highlight=week++results#31429


          Showing quite clearly that calories do not count. Also cutting carbs and raising fat must elevate BMR, or body fat loss would not have been possible.


          * BMR is not raised instantly and fat loss elevates over the first week or so. Dairy looks to be slowing fat loss when introduced.

          The "Seven Deadly Sins"

          Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
          Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
          Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

          Comment


          • #35
            1



            @lbd


            That&#39;s OK I was in a hurry when reading haha!

            Don't be a paleotard...

            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...torage-qa.html

            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rn-fat-qa.html

            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

            Comment


            • #36
              1



              @Tarlach


              Dumbest.

              Website.

              Ever.

              Don't be a paleotard...

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...torage-qa.html

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rn-fat-qa.html

              http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

              Comment


              • #37
                1



                OK OK.


                Maybe not dumbest but second most forked up for sure.

                Don't be a paleotard...

                http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

                http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...torage-qa.html

                http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rn-fat-qa.html

                http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

                Comment


                • #38
                  1



                  Calories matter if you&#39;re on SAD. But if you&#39;re primal then your metabolism is boosted dramatically so any left over cals will not be stored.


                  I think... :]

                  .`.><((((> .`.><((((>.`.><((((>.`.><(( ((>
                  ><((((> .`.><((((>.`.><((((>.`.><(( ((>

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    1



                    Raphael, I mostly agree with you from my experience... in my experience, calories don&#39;t matter if I want to maintain my weight, as long as I&#39;m eating the right foods (and not gorging myself on fruit or something... plus I&#39;m not a nut addict so I can&#39;t speak on that).


                    HOWEVER if I want to LOSE weight, calories DO matter. Maybe if I were seriously overweight and switched to primal I wouldn&#39;t have to count calories or measure stuff... but when it comes to the last few "vanity" pounds, they&#39;re not coming off on their own, you know? Our bodies LIKE to have a little extra padding, especially women.


                    And it&#39;s a good thing I didn&#39;t lose it when I wanted to... otherwise I&#39;d be really worried about losing 6-7 (7 as of this morning) pounds during this first part of my pregnancy. Guess my body knew what it was doing when it held on to those last few pounds... now I&#39;d say I&#39;m pretty much at my "ideal weight." haha. It took several weeks of pregnancy nausea and food aversions to get here, but whatever.

                    Eating lots but still hungry? Eat more fat. Mid-day sluggishness? Eat more fat. Feeling depressed or irritable? Eat more fat. People think you've developed an eating disorder? Eat more fat... in front of them.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      1



                      Tell the folks at Auschwitz and other concentration camps that calories don&#39;t (ultimately) count.


                      Doh!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        1



                        @chima_p


                        Dumbest reply ever.


                        The website is stupid. The evidence in that post however is nicely laid out and more rigorously controlled than most scientific studies. Your blanket dismissal highlights your ignorance and inability to accept new ideas. I have tried this myself and so have a number of other members (just not to the same degree). It works.


                        Are you open minded enough to get off your high horse and try it?
                        [quote]


                        Tell the folks at Auschwitz and other concentration camps that calories don&#39;t (ultimately) count.
                        </blockquote>


                        Well done holding up Godwin&#39;s law with a stupid analogy.


                        No-one will dispute the fact that starvation will result in fat loss.


                        The first post way in reference to calories counting by contributes a certain amount of energy to the body. As that number is a guess and not fixed, you can&#39;t rely on counting calories to work out a calorific deficit.


                        The body varies how many calories it extracts from foods and BMR varies depending upon diet and exercise.


                        As has been said before GCBC spells some of this out.


                        My point is that you can not say I have eaten x calories and burnt x calories. It is guesswork at best and the reason why we see posts saying "I am eating 1000 calories under BMR and not losing weight", or conversely "I am eating 4000 calories a day and losing body fat with no exercise". It&#39;s a gross simplification to say calories in - calories out as you can&#39;t accurately calculate either.


                        Maybe if we had the full formula it would be easier.


                        (consumed calories x frequency of eating x % fiber consumed x % carbs) - (calories burnt by futile cycling + basic function + exercise + thyroid function + (% glycogen depletion x carb/time consumption) + insulin responce + HGH/testosterone/adrenaline response) = calories burnt or stored


                        That is still a massive simplification and we don&#39;t know to what extent each of the variables affect the result.


                        At the end of the day to lose more weight you need to either raise calories burnt, or decrease calories consumed. If you can sustain eating less and keep everything else the same - do that. If you can&#39;t then consider raising calories burnt by doing IF, eating more fat, lowering carbs, dropping dairy, doing strength training, etc.


                        "Eat less" is not the only answer and different goals will require a different answer. Those who wish to put on muscle and lose body fat at the same time, should not be eating less.


                        ...and anyone who says "I am eating 1800 calories and my BMR is 2200" is deluding themselves in a big way. Their guesswork may or may not be based upon an actual deficit.

                        The "Seven Deadly Sins"

                        Grains (wheat/rice/oats etc) . . . . . Dairy (milk/yogurt/butter/cheese etc) . . . . . Nightshades (peppers/tomato/eggplant etc)
                        Tubers (potato/arrowroot etc) . . . Modernly palatable (cashews/olives etc) . . . Refined foods (salt/sugars etc )
                        Legumes (soy/beans/peas etc)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          1



                          Lol are you actually trying to prove your point by pointing out that website?? That&#39;s a guy doing an experiment on himself!


                          That formula is nonsense btw. And you have made no proof for your point.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            1



                            @Tarlach


                            LOL! I am sure if you look you could find a post worse than that from me.


                            But then you agreed that the website is stupid....


                            What the hell is up with all the cats?


                            Anyway. As usual nobody is debating the same issue.

                            Which as usual has strayed from the OP haha! BMR is only one portion of the equation that is used to approximate TEE. I don&#39;t think anybody is arguing that TEE can&#39;t be effected by what foods you eat. BMR is the starting point after you wake up and have not eaten for 12 hours as in Basal. Once you start talking food or exercise you are no longer talking BMR.


                            "At the end of the day to lose more weight you need to either raise calories burnt, or decrease calories consumed. If you can sustain eating less and keep everything else the same - do that. If you can&#39;t then consider raising calories burnt by doing IF, eating more fat, lowering carbs, dropping dairy, doing strength training, etc."


                            In other words "calories matter".


                            "...and anyone who says "I am eating 1800 calories and my BMR is 2200" is deluding themselves in a big way. Their guesswork may or may not be based upon an actual deficit."


                            Agreed. It is an estimate but it is a starting point.

                            If you don&#39;t know these estimates and your goals are not being met how else do you know where to start? It is better than trying a bunch of random things until something works.


                            I don&#39;t think I am on a high horse. Besides if I came anywhere near you with a horse you would probably eat it haha!

                            Don't be a paleotard...

                            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...oxidation.html

                            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...torage-qa.html

                            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...rn-fat-qa.html

                            http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              1



                              Now, Tarlach, I never mentioned Hitler, so Godwin&#39;s law is unfulfilled.


                              The observation of counting calories, relating same to BMR plus activity multiplier is accurate, as I&#39;m seeing the comments. For months, per very conservative total BMR (TMR?) (2700 kc) and per very careful food logging, I was in perpetual 1000 cal/day deficit. Yet, not a pound was shed.


                              I&#39;m beginning to think I would have stayed fat in the concentration camps......

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                1



                                I&#39;ve read through everyone&#39;s posts and I think you all have good points. My question is though, why do we use calories to measure food if our bodies don&#39;t digest calories the same way as they are determined? What I mean is, calories are calculated by pretty much blowing them up in some contraption. But as far as I understand it, our bodies don&#39;t do that to food. So why do we use calories? I&#39;m just curious. And if I am completely ignorant, I&#39;m sorry!

                                Comment

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