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  • #16
    Originally posted by junebu8 View Post
    I'm new to the forum (today) but I've been eating primal/paleo for a couple years, and I've had dramatic weightloss, and lots of stalls too. Stalls ALWAYS come when my focus shifts from away from eating meat and veggies, toward making complicated 'legal' treats and sweets. Turns out, that for me, a primal three tier cake is still a three tier cake. So even if the chocolate and fruit statement was an over-generalization, it really applies to my situation. Also, I happen to be a stay at home mom, and I have a lot of control over what I eat/when I snack because I'm the person who does the shopping and cooking. So if I'm experimenting with a new recipe or product, I'm the one doing all the taste testing. On the other hand, my husband is working two jobs and doesn't have much time to think about food. He doesn't cook at all, and he never sits around wondering if he could come up with a passable german chocolate cake using almond flour and coconut oil He eats three primal meals a day, which I prepare, and the only thought he gives to it is to thank me for it. If he did have to cook for himself, I think he would get by solely on grilled meat and salad with vinaigrette, which sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

    Of course, my situation might be pretty unique so maybe it's not applicable to many, but I do best when I stick to the basics in the kitchen, and try to find another outlet for my creative energies.
    +10000

    I know that is the honest truth to me too. While I am learning oodles about making some fabulous stuff, I only veer away from grilled meat and veggies once a week. I cook almond flour pancakes for my boys nearly every day but I personally only eat them once a week. My making recipes is mostly to keep my kids in check.

    I think you made a very very good point June.

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    • #17
      I would like to see more on the hormonal issues side of it... a lot of ladies with pre-existing thyroid issues have advised not to go below 50g carbs a day for others with hormonal problems, but rather stay between 50-100g, because that's when they lose weight and have the most energy (VLC caused their weight plateaus and feeling poorly in general), and to in fact get some of those carbs from starch sources, kind of like what The Perfect Health Diet advocates. I've seen others respond that it's a matter of getting enough of the right nutrients from organ meats, not just the muscle meats... like selenium, zinc, mag, manganese, etc. But if that's the case, what if I'm icked out by that thought at this point, and can't really find anything other than liver or tripe anyway? Then, taking both these 'sides' of the VLC for women with hormonal issues debate together, it seems like supplementation and paying more attention to nutrition, not just carbs, could help. I've already started eating two brazil nuts a day for selenium, for example -- but I'm not really sure if it'll help with anything, and if it does, how that would work.

      I know there must be a very complicated interaction between hormones. But sometimes I feel like people go into MORE detail on the forums than what's actually written on the blog or the book, and advise different or even contradictory things, like this whole issue of whether ketosis/VLC is the most efficient way to lose weight. Ultimately I know it's up to each person to try out different things and see what works for them in terms of ideal weight, energy levels, etc. But for a while I was worried that I was CAUSING hypothyroidism by eating VLC, and I wasn't doing it on purpose either; it's just the way things worked out with how I was planning my meals. And I do think it's something that affects women in a different way, simply because of the greater prevalence of hormonal issues, namely PCOS and thyroid stuff, plus the fact that our sex hormones are constantly cycling. For example I've noticed that I need to eat more during my period, as well as sleep more. There was a post about those with PCOS and IFing, and it made me realize that if I decide to IF in the future I have to be really careful about doing it during my period... and that's just not something men have to worry about, really. So in that way I do think some elements of PB are more complicated for women.

      As for calories... wouldn't those who are starting out overweight also eat higher calories though? - just still less than their basal metabolic rate? And gradually adjust it downwards as they lose weight. I think that may be why I seem to be eating about 1,700 calories a day (and I'm 5'1") without doing too much exercise--walking and dancing a few times a week--but still losing weight steadily: 6 pounds in 5 weeks, and right now I don't want to lose too much more -- 20 pounds or so -- so right now I'm happy with that progress. Ultimately I care about the torso fat going away though, and I've noticed that too is slowly disappearing, and if I get to that weight and the torso fat still isn't gone then I would probably have to cut down on calories and do more intense exercise. When I was eating 1200 calories a day of un-nutritious foods max and doing chronic cardio I didn't lose any weight and there weren't any changes in my body composition -- well unless injuries count haha. So I do think it's also a matter of nutrition.

      I've also seen it said before that you shouldn't eat fat WITH carbs b/c the carbs would 'open up' the fat cells to insulin and you'd end up storing the fat too... or something like that. I'm not sure how true that is, but I try not to worry about details like that too much, because I'm already paying WAY more attention to the nutrition (as well as calories) of what I eat than most other people ever do in their lives, and going into that much detail would just stress me out and defeat the point of living a healthy lifestyle. In general I feel like the forums are more carb-phobic than they really need to be... you also see posts where people worry about carbs in onions and carrots and things like that. And in general I want to enjoy my food... not worry about the calories or carb count or fat count like so many people do when eating *anything*.

      I guess you'd have to do a poll to see whether women do rely more on nuts/fruit/chocolate/dairy/primal baked goods for calories, but anecdotally it seems like I've read about more women than men having issues with sugar cravings, and I also know way more females than males who are 'carb-o-holics.' I wonder if this relates at all to ingrained gender stereotypes and the notion that 'meat is for men'... there's also a good thread in the forums about how it could tie in with serotonin levels. I know that I have issues with sugar addiction; I was able to finally admit it to myself, and have veered away from buying nut flours or dark chocolate or too much fruit for that reason, because I'm worried I still won't be able to control how much I eat. Out of sight, out of mind... or at least out of mouth haha. Especially for those of us who are in the process of losing weight, possibly compounded with women's body image troubles, it seems like a 'brave step' to eat as much meat and fat as we are. Personally I LOVE eating so much meat and fat because they taste so good and there's also a part of me that takes pleasure in doing something typically 'forbidden.'
      Last edited by spakesneaker; 11-05-2010, 02:40 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Coconut View Post
        I also agree. I actuallly still think that perhaps too much fat and too many cals. Marks base of the pyramid is veggies and fruit, not fat.
        I disagree. I think the people who aren't losing are eating too many carbs in the form of fruit, dairy and starchy veg.
        Last edited by StoneAgeQueen; 11-06-2010, 02:32 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jazmin View Post
          Hi Mark!

          Not sure if anyone has suggested this yet, but if they have, let me add my voice!

          So ... I have noticed a rather disturbing trend of women on the forums who are discouraged and frustrated. They are not seeing the weight loss they hoped for, or they are struggling with some issues that the men aren't. See NSWM's thread "Is It Even Possible for Women to Lose Weight on the PB?"

          As much as I adore your advice, I think maybe we could use some female input from Grok HQ. Do you think your wife would be willing to start a Q&A thread for us Primal ladies? Or maybe a blog post on her daily routines? Or maybe one of the ladies in your employ would be willing to chime-in on the forums or in a blog post?

          I see a lot more discouragement among the female grokstars than among the males, who seem to be tripping along pretty merrily eating a lot of good phatty meat and veggies, doing their sprints and Heavy Things ... while us ladies tend to focus on fruits and Primal baked goods and chocolate. Possibly some of the disenchantment is a result of the guys' amazing fatloss success stories, which are so wonderful, but which may not be realistic, in terms of the quick timeframe, for us ladies - with our different metabolisms, hormones, cravings, and activity levels.

          Anyway, I'd love to get a female perspective on the PB.

          Jazmin
          Completely agree!

          I believe that would be a huge success and it will make such a huge difference to a wan like myself who is doing her best on her PB quest as well as beeing a good mum, wife. athlete. earner and all the rest that comes along with territory.

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          • #20
            It doesn't get any better than this: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...llow-grokettes...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by elwyne View Post
              It doesn't get any better than this: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...llow-grokettes...
              You are so right! I have been posting that thread all over the place when I see someone is discouraged about the numbers on the scale. Maybe if Grok HQ won't start a forum for female issues, Batty will!
              ~ Ex-Herbivore Goes Carnivore: Jazmin's PB Journal ~

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              • #22
                Originally posted by jazmin View Post
                Either way, I would like to hear some female wisdom from above. I think a forum section for female concerns with a couple of sticky threads for Q&As from the the grokettes would be great.
                I've suggested it... 'they' thought it a great idea. Keep suggesting it everyone!

                Around the forum, in women's journals, requests for advice, and so on, I have come across a certain level of discouragement/frustration/confusion about fatloss plateaus, etc.
                keep in mind that people are more likely to vocalize something that *isn't* working - especially women. There is interesting psychology/sociology research showing we tend to bond over negative stuff.

                So I do think that partly you are seeing the result of that. I and all of my primal local friends have been really successful on pb. And my SIL who is insulin resistant/prediabetic and very overweight has lost 19lbs since the beginning of August.

                I'm not sure this 80/20 idea works as well for us as it does for the men
                okay....so..... do it differently?

                If I can't, that's fine, but then I would like to hear from her (or another lady in the organization) what it REALLY takes to get where she is.
                Many here who have struggled with stalls and plateaus have posted what they have done to move forward. IOW, many here have REALLY shared 'what it takes to get where she is'.

                Kuno, batty, me

                If in the end, all it shows us is that most women can't look like Mark's wife without hours per week with a personal trainer or having been in shape for years already, then that's fine.
                Have a look at the before and after pics thread. Check with those women and see what they're doing.

                There are *so* many success stories out there - with women doing pb 80/20 and those doing it more strictly and much more strictly. Tons really. Have a look around.

                I've written a ton in some of the stall/plateau threads.

                Best,
                Katherine



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                • #23
                  Originally posted by moo View Post
                  Originally posted by junebu8 View Post
                  I'm new to the forum (today) but I've been eating primal/paleo for a couple years, and I've had dramatic weightloss, and lots of stalls too. Stalls ALWAYS come when my focus shifts from away from eating meat and veggies, toward making complicated 'legal' treats and sweets. Turns out, that for me, a primal three tier cake is still a three tier cake. So even if the chocolate and fruit statement was an over-generalization, it really applies to my situation.
                  +10000

                  I know that is the honest truth to me too. While I am learning oodles about making some fabulous stuff, I only veer away from grilled meat and veggies once a week. I cook almond flour pancakes for my boys nearly every day but I personally only eat them once a week. My making recipes is mostly to keep my kids in check.
                  +1000 from me too

                  Originally posted by imasin View Post
                  I would like to see more on the hormonal issues side of it... a lot of ladies with pre-existing thyroid issues have advised not to go below 50g carbs a day for others with hormonal problems, but rather stay between 50-100g,
                  but even that isn't universal. We just don't know everything there is to know so everyone tosses out their 'what worked for me' story and it's up to that individual to try it on for size.

                  I know there must be a very complicated interaction between hormones. But sometimes I feel like people go into MORE detail on the forums than what's actually written on the blog or the book, and advise different or even contradictory things,
                  Of course they do! Wouldn't it be a ridiculous waste of time if we all were limited to parroting back the book or the MDA blog posts? For most, PB works as written. Some need more clarification. Some like to continue to take the path to optimal health to an exteme degree. THAT is why the forum is here. To discuss, sometimes ad nauseaum just about anything we can while keeping it (mostly) related to PB and hopefully civil and helpful.

                  like this whole issue of whether ketosis/VLC is the most efficient way to lose weight.
                  It's probably ultimately not known yet. What is known is that ketosis appears to be a very biologically appropriate state for humans - one that has many benefits (neuroprotection being one....many many others as well)

                  But for a while I was worried that I was CAUSING hypothyroidism by eating VLC, and I wasn't doing it on purpose either; it's just the way things worked out with how I was planning my meals.
                  Organ/system breakdown is probably always caused by poor nutrition - and that can occur in or out of ketosis

                  As for calories... wouldn't those who are starting out overweight also eat higher calories though? - just still less than their basal metabolic rate?
                  probably...though certainly, since we know it's not 'just cals' (and I realize you're not saying it is), other things factor in like saiety.

                  So I do think it's also a matter of nutrition.
                  A 'confluence' of factors so to speak.

                  I've also seen it said before that you shouldn't eat fat WITH carbs b/c the carbs would 'open up' the fat cells to insulin and you'd end up storing the fat too... or something like that.
                  For most it won't matter. But for those who are serious athletes using carb cycling and for those who are IR/diabetic or fighting a serious stall/plateau, it might be helpful to split exactly this sort of hair.

                  In general I feel like the forums are more carb-phobic than they really need to be... you also see posts where people worry about carbs in onions and carrots and things like that.
                  Interesting. I find that most aren't really so worried about it at all. And those that are more aware/concerned about it tend to be for vary good reasons that are specific to their situations. Fwiw though, there is a huge difference in the amount of veggies (and therefor antioxidants/nutriton) that one can eat ingesting carrots/onions v. non-starchy/low sugar leafy stuff.

                  I don't happen to be generally concerned about it but And in general I want to enjoy my food... not worry about the calories or carb count or fat count like so many people do when eating *anything*.
                  Are we on the same forum? lol I can only think of a couple ppl who are obsessed and they have openly admitted having active eating disorders. And I guess I skip those posts b/c I find them anoying.

                  And +1 on the rest of your post re: avoiding buying certain things etc etc...
                  Last edited by cillakat; 11-07-2010, 04:37 AM.



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                  • #24
                    I can think of at least six women off the top of my head who've lost 100 (or very close to it) pounds on this message board. But they aren't the bragging type and/or are not regular posters.

                    I agree with cillakat that Carrie Sisson, although very inspirational in her own right, has never been overweight (not even when she was pregnant...LOL), so would not be the appropriate person to address the OP's concerns.

                    I think Primal's liberal stance wrt dairy is likely one part of the problem....but you knew I was gonna say that, didn't you?! I've noted it's an issue for women moreso than men. Frankly, I don't see the same level of struggling on Paleo boards, where a stricter approach to dairy is taken.

                    I hope everybody finds what works best for them and their own bodies.
                    "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." -- Hippocrates

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                    • #25
                      I think Primal's liberal stance wrt dairy is likely one part of the problem....but you knew I was gonna say that, didn't you?! I've noted it's an issue for women moreso than men. Frankly, I don't see the same level of struggling on Paleo boards, where a stricter approach to dairy is taken.
                      Yeah. well, on paleo boards, a stricter approach on several things is taken But yes, women generally have smaller bodies, smaller muscle mass and therefor have lower caloric needs. Then there is the insulogenic nature of dairy.....and the ease with which the 'treats' can be overeaten. I'm overeating them right now. O_O

                      K



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                      • #26
                        I have to say, I haven't had any trouble losing FAT following PB. I haven't lost a ton of WEIGHT.
                        When I've started running into problems, it is generally because:

                        1.) I eat when I'm not really hungry, or fail to stop eating when I stop being hungry.
                        2.) When I start using cheese and cured meats on a regular basis.
                        3.) When I get lazy with my supplements (fish oil, multi and D3)
                        4.) When I get lazy with my moving around (as I have been, just lately )

                        I am strong, healthy, and have a ton of energy. I will NEVER look like Carrie Sisson; our genetics are different. I will never be a Gazelle---I have wide shoulders and hips, and a big rib cage---but I can be a Lioness. And that makes me happy

                        ETA: I'm also not "ripped". Probably won't be, because it's not that big of a deal to me. I'm cruising around 22-23% BF right now, and it's all good.

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                        • #27
                          -Men will lose weight more quickly than women on ANY diet. They will also gain muscle more readily too. It's not PB specific. It's just one of those things that sucks about being a woman.
                          -This is very important IMO if you want to get the fat loss benefits specific to PB: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-p...ate-continuum/ . I don't care if sweet potatoes are a great source of beta carotene without containing antinutrients, just because something is healthy doesn't mean that it won't impede fat loss efforts. With the exception of berries, carbs from fruit can really add up as well.
                          -You still have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. I see a lot of posts where people put 1/4 cup of heavy cream in their coffee every morning and stuff like that. Count calories for at least a week or two to get an idea of what you should be consuming.
                          -Lift heavy things, it won't make you "bulky" or "manly"

                          I really think that's all it comes down to.
                          My food blog ~ http://stuffimakemyhusband.blogspot.com
                          My primal success story

                          "Boxing seems to contain so complete and so powerful an image of life -- life's beauty, vulnerability, despair, incalculable and often self-destructive courage -- that boxing IS life, and hardly a mere game." --Joyce Carol Oates

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                          • #28
                            I happen to think there is a Primal Blueprint for women, and that it is different from what works for men.

                            I was on an ethnographic reading kick for a while, and I surveyed a number of writings about modern hunter-gatherer peoples, the closest we can get to watching a Grok-equivalent in action.

                            Women's physical activities involve a lot of the following:
                            1. Carrying Things. Please notice this is NOT the same activity as Lifting Heavy Things.
                            --Things like bundles of wood on the head or tied to the back.
                            --Things like babies in slings, worn in the front or back, often with a toddler carried on the hip.
                            --Things like bundles of very heavy roots.
                            2. Digging for Things with Digging Sticks. Notice this is not the same activity as hunting game by using a spear.
                            ---Things like roots.
                            ---Things like insects.
                            3. Pounding roots, barks and seeds in a bowl or chopping things up. Notice this is not the same thing as chopping wood.

                            Women often walk to and from a foraging site, at distances that require a full day, carrying their nursing babies and then the heavy skins of foraged roots, plants, and barks back to camp. I think that's the paradigmatic Primal Activity for Females. Not sprinting. Females excel at ultraendurance events out of proportion to their numbers in the sport. I think that's because we're uniquely suited to it.

                            Just some ponderings.

                            PWG

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by erica057 View Post
                              -Men will lose weight more quickly than women on ANY diet. They will also gain muscle more readily too. It's not PB specific. It's just one of those things that sucks about being a woman.
                              -This is very important IMO if you want to get the fat loss benefits specific to PB: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-p...ate-continuum/ . I don't care if sweet potatoes are a great source of beta carotene without containing antinutrients, just because something is healthy doesn't mean that it won't impede fat loss efforts. With the exception of berries, carbs from fruit can really add up as well.
                              -You still have to be in a caloric deficit to lose weight. I see a lot of posts where people put 1/4 cup of heavy cream in their coffee every morning and stuff like that. Count calories for at least a week or two to get an idea of what you should be consuming.
                              -Lift heavy things, it won't make you "bulky" or "manly"

                              I really think that's all it comes down to.
                              Wait, 1/4 cup of heavy cream in my coffee is a bad thing? LOL
                              Melissa Fritcher - 330/252/150
                              http://lessofmimi.wordpress.com
                              Trample the weak, hurdle the dead.

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                              • #30
                                I am also one of those frustrated women, finishing my third month with NO weight loss. I have not focused on nuts, dairy, fruit and chocolate, in fact I cut them all out, and still nothing. I would really like to hear how other women do it, ESPECIALLY Mark's wife. I also want to know more about unique woman's issues, like the role of hormones, and special dietary considerations around our menstrual cycles, menopause, etc. Additionally, I have been told from the start to eat when I am hungry. This does not work. I eat plenty o' fat and am surviving off of meat & veggies and I am not losing weight. I am happy that I have kept my diet a secret so that no CW people are laughing in my face.

                                Also I want to add a little note about cutting nuts, dairy, & fruit. I found I got SUPER low on energy after 2 months of primal. It took my mom telling me to look at my diet to snap out of it. I added fermented dairy and fruit IN MODERATION back into my diet and found my energy levels came back. We need to be really careful about making big sweeping declarations that a primal food should be cut out in order to lose weight, and instead help each other foster positive relationships with food so that we can enjoy small amounts of all primal foods. We also need to remember that we are all on a journey to find what works for us individually. Instead of saying, "you must cut out nuts to lose weight," we could instead say, "I have found that for me cutting out nuts has worked." I'm just sayin...

                                I am also wondering how I can be 100% primal, exercise primally 6x a day, & consume 3 alcoholic drinks/ week and be overweight while my husband can drink 2 beers a night, graze on the grains, chow the chocolate, Redbull, & candy, exercise way less than me and have six pack abs. It is a cruel cruel world.
                                Last edited by me2; 11-15-2010, 07:23 AM.
                                Notebook of a Nutrition Nerd

                                THE FOOD YOU EAT CAN BE THE SAFEST AND MOST POWERFUL FORM OF MEDICINE OR THE SLOWEST RELEASING POISON' - Dr Ann Wigmore.

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