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  • #46

    Nicely done, Tarlach.

    Demonizing anything and everything just because it's "CW" is preposterous. The world isn't binary.

    And denying the Holocaust? Really? Either read some books, or go play with the Young Earth Creationists.


    • #47

      He he he young earth creationists... once apon a time I was one of those.

      Now on the topic of vaccines. I have no children but I have 5 younger siblings, 4 of whom are not vaccinated and one of whom is only vaccinated until two years old. I myself was vaccinated until the age of five, if I recall correctly.

      I suffered no long-term advsese reactions to being vaccinated, but I DID catch measles AND mumps (I got MMR), and not from my unvaccinated siblings either (not born yet). I got violently ill after the MMR vaccine (according to my mother).But one person is not any example of anything.

      Most children do not suffer from being vaccinated. But most children don't die from catching measles either. I'm not actually sure if we vaccinate for polio, I was under the impression that polio was nearly erradicated as a disease in the western world.

      If I lived in africa I would be getting vaccinated for everything! And I would vaccinate my children if I had any. Heck if I lived in a poor area of my own country I would definitly vaccinate my children.

      Due to the fact I live in a rich country, with great medical care, and by the time I have children I will be relativly affluent and able to provide a good level of sanitation and nutrition, I would have to seriously weigh the risks of vaccination against the low risk of death from diseases in my country and in my social position. Vaccines DO cause harm, and some diseases DO kill. I would have no problem at all about vaccination if they were not full of heavy metals and other posions. I am not anti-vaccine, but I am anti-posioning my potential children and myself, especially at important stages of brain development.

      If I had to travel I would get vaccinated because the risk of vaccination to an adult is not great. The risk of vaccines (heavy metals) on the developing brains of infants is another story.


      • #48

        children in this country are severely over-vaccinated and the statistics show it in various illness.Tetnusx3 chicken pox x3 combo get about 20-30 now I had about 8 vaccines with only 2 severe reactions as a child requiring surgery to remove golf ball sized lymph nodes.Other countries give around 8 and some countries administer only after the child is 2 years old,in USA they give a Hep b when the child is a few HOURS old WTF!!!

        What about tuberculosis,rocky mt spotted fever,cholera,yellow fever?These diseases are rare now yet there have never been vaccines for any of these yet they were rampant when the vaccines were mass produced for polio,mumps,measels ect.

        SO we attribute their decline to modern sanitation and the other diseases declined due to vaccines?


        • #49

          gnosis brings up a good point, that of moving from Yes-No to vaccines to knowing what is too much - or not enough. Maybe the US system isn't too much, just because "other countries" do less doesn't mean that is correct, either. OTOH, maybe it is, or maybe there are environmental and genetic factors that should weigh in on the decision making process.

          I'm sure there are some good answers out there, but between habit, $$$$, and educating doctors better, it's a slow road to change.


          • #50

            erik.cisler, you are very rude.

            While I don't have children either, I'm capable of understanding both sides of those who choose to vaccinate their kids and those who chose to opt out.

            By the way, who the hell is denying holocaust here? Point it out please.

            My boyfriend collects books about WWII and has quite a few very interesting ones about Nazi's and Holocaust, including the original Mein Kampf, so believe me when I say that I read my share of books on this issue. However, it does not mean that it should restrict me from being curious about learning what theories are out there and how they are explained.

            Just because I read the Bible does not mean that I agree with it, and the opposite holds true as well.

            It seems to be that majority of people who found their way to this web-site are pretty open-minded, right? So why in the world there's so much "It's my way, or the highway" vibe in this topic?


            • #51

              I agree that everyone should check out the ingredients on vaccines, and shop around for the best one. Or maybe even delay until children are slightly older to administer them. Fine. But what I'm hearing is textbook tragedy of the commons. A lot of 'Oh, well, if I were in Africa, I'd totally get my kids vaccinated.', which aside from smacking of African-homogeneity-syndrome and racism, essentially states that the only reason you don't get your kids vaccinated is because the rest of us are vaccinated and you don't anticipate them coming into contact with too many disease carriers.

              The way you can detect whether a behavior results in a tragedy of the commons is to consider the consequences if everyone did it. The original example is everyone grazing their flock on the town common, but murder, theft, toxic waste dumping, etc. also fit into the mold. If no one got their kids vaccinated, you all have admitted that disease would run rampant (as in 'Africa&#39 and you'd feel compelled to get them vaccinated.

              If this wasn't immediately obvious to you, consider tracking down your economics and history teachers and letting them know they suck.

              Perhaps see your English teacher as well, since apparently you're willing to use apostrophes when totally uncalled for (why you wouldn't vaccinate despite considering vaccines unnecessary, I do not know). Possessive pluralizing makes baby Grok cry.

              There's such a thing as being so open minded you brain falls out. Perhaps all of you are simply new to the Internet, and have not yet figured out how to ascertain the credibility of various sources, and haven't long ago come across most of the cranks, as those of us who were online before there was a web have. In that case, you may want to go start reading about Dolce Base, chemtrails, HAARP, Queen Elizabeth II's true reptilian nature, massive underwater city ruins (definitely not grid-shaped sonar artifacts, oh no). You'll get hours of entertainment.

              If you care to deny the holocaust or imply that Edward Jenner's work was just placebo effect, you'll get a similar "my way or the highway" from me as you would if you told me the orbits of the planets are not concentric around the sun, the moon landing was faked, or that pure water can have a memory of previously contacted substances.

              Seriously, the Primal Blueprint is based on rational examination of the facts and research about our nutrition and habits in the past, and their correlation with health and fitness. That may make it somewhat of a fringe idea, but still a fringe idea supported by the science and evolution, and certainly not an idea that by its fringe-ness is a natural partner for autism truthers and holocaust deniers.


              • #52




                • #53

                  You are SO right, Nick.

                  The point you are trying to make of if we were "in Africa" is exactly where we "were", right here in the good old USA 50-100 years ago. Rampant disease, quarantined homes, summer polio. death by diarhhea. People have forgotten that that was life in the US prior to vaccines.

                  If someone can get away with not contracting one of those deadly illnesses today, it is only because of the millions who have been vaccinated. But our OP doesn't see that, if I understand him correctly.

                  We are in this thing called society pretty much interconnected or we are not. The evidence supports the former.


                  • #54

                    I completely disagree with your choice to not immunize your children. Unfortunately the research that raised the scare was all bad science. A little something called "false-positives." They were looking for an RNA virus but were detecting a DNA contaminant!! Google Stephen Bustin and "Minimum requirements for quantitative PCR." All this increase in awareness of proper scientific PCR controls is from this vaccine issue.

                    I also completely agree with other posters who talk about life expectancy and vaccination. If you are still able to I would highly recommend ensuring that your children are protected from these dangerous and debilitating diseases.


                    • #55

                      It's interesting to note that the vast majority of vaccination skeptics seem to not be part of the scientific community or have no formal training in science.

                      “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                      "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                      "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull


                      • #56

                        There’s a really great Dr. House quip on vaccinations involving a young mother and child and her refusal to vaccinate. I know it’s not reality, but it sums up most of my opinion on natural living vs. vaccination.

                        I was vaccinated as a child with the various standards (but not chicken pox…that one didn’t come until after I’d had it). Before college, I got a meningitis vaccine. I’ve received two flu shots in my life, only while living at home with one parent who is severely asthmatic. I’m well aware there are side effects with vaccination, but I agree with the previous posters to do your research and analyze your risks. Having two close relatives near death and put on strict long-term bedrest in their childhood from various (now vaccinated) diseases (mumps, whooping cough), I’d rather err on the side of caution. As an adult who is exposed to some dangerous situations in being involved with rescue operations / first responder situations you bet I have a current tetanus shot. I also am adamant about wearing protective gear and using extreme care in ANY chance of blood-borne pathogen infection. It’s not something to be taken lightly, IMO.

                        Now…Do I receive flu shots? No. Did I sign up for the HPV vaccine? No. Too may reported side effects and problems. If I travel to a “warning” area for work (i.e. South America) will I prepare myself by getting vaccinated? You bet your ass I will. I can certainly keep my immune system prepared for common ailments but a serious infectious disease? I’m not taking my chances. I’ve had few (if any) ill effects from vaccines.

                        I’m all for prevention whenever possible. My arguments with the medical and pharmaceutical industry lie in the realm of “treatment,” especially our heavy dependency on antibiotics.


                        • #57

                          I am so frusterated at people in this post spouting facts with no backup eg "some interesting research that vaccines aren't really the reason we have less disease, better sanitation is." What? Where is this study? Who funded it? What kind of controls? I don't even think that this could be possible to study as it would have to be an EXTREMELY long term study.

                          You guys all need to get your butts on to google scholar and pubmed. Not random websites and wikis that give unsupported hooey.


                          • #58

                            (slightly off topic)

                            OTB - I have a photo of a quarantined cottage from the 30s passed down from my grandmother. I think I may have scanned it, I'll post a link if I can locate it.


                            • #59

                              lcme: Great questions, but it goes both way

                              Show me a long term study about the benefits of vaccines. Who funded it (big pharm, the gov't)? What kind of controls? Like you said, how can a study like this be possible as it would be EXTREMELY long term. We've barely been vaccinating for a single human do we know the long term effects?

                              Introduction date of vaccines:

                              Measles: 1963

                              Chickenpox: 1988

                              Diphtheria: 1921

                              DTaP: 1991

                              Hep A: 1995

                              Hep B: 1982

                              HIB: 1985

                              HPV: 2006

                              Flu: 1945

                              Mumps: 1968

                              polio: 1995

                              Rubella: 1965

                              Rotavirus: 1998


                              There have been some links to other sites that have good information about vaccines. If you choose to discredit that because they weren't funded by the CDC so be it. I tend to question ANYTHING that comes from the gov't or big pharm....but I guess that's just me

                              Another source:




                              • #60

                                Smallpox: 1796

                                Bubonic plague: 1897