Diet as Dogma
People are dogmatic. We’re territorial, stubborn, obstinate, and we cling to our ideologies even as accumulating evidence invalidates them. I sometimes wonder whether there’s evolutionary precedent for this apparent character flaw – did stubborn dogmatism confer some benefit to our ancestors? Did our tendency to cling to one another, to shy away from that which opposes or clashes with our current paradigm (whether it be a new tribe with different practices encroaching on your land, or a guy you meet at a cocktail party with completely different political views) make us safer? To a point, yes. Being wary of anything new promotes better survival than a tendency to rush headlong into foolhardy pursuits. There’s certainly that human legacy of fear of the unknown, and it normally manifests as dogmatic belief and cognitive dissonance. That much is obvious to anyone who watches the news or picks up a history book.
But there’s also that other legacy we’re irrevocably tied to: the continued expansion of our knowledge base. Grok may have been suspicious of different things and circumstances, but he also conquered that fear and discovered new horizons. By and large humans are explorers and innovators. We refute dogma and blaze new trails even as we cling to fear and ideology. We’re pretty much a walking contradiction, just a big-brained upright problematic ape with existential issues that still manages to do pretty well for him or herself. They don’t call us the most adaptive species on Earth for nothing.
If we were more cold and logical – like the Vulcans of Star Trek – things might get a bit easier, ruled by reason and reason alone. Cognitive dissonance would disappear and ideology would mostly vanish, leaving only absolute fealty to pure data. We’d get a lot done and there’d be absolute scientific consensus, but how much fun would it really be?
No, we’re contradictory and confused. We’ll make the emotionally difficult but realistic decision to put our aging pet to sleep, and then we’ll break down and weep all night. We’ll hear powerful evidence that refutes a deeply held belief and we’ll internally acknowledge its significance, but then we’re somehow able to dismiss it and maintain our delusion. Religious and ethnic clashes dot our history, never ending blood feuds, based on this text or that political cartoon, that continue unabated and will probably do so forever. Futile battles rage across Internet message boards – Playstation versus Xbox, Apple versus PC, vegetarian versus omnivore, Democrat versus Republican, carbohydrate versus fat – and it hardly goes anywhere. Graphs are posted and ignored, studies are quoted and brushed aside. Willful ignorance is proudly displayed. You can almost hear the fingers going in the ears (most people can’t even stand to hear evidence that contradicts their belief – the always dependable “la la la la” defense!).
People have the tendency to cluster around ideas as if they were tangible things and hold on for dear life. When we find something we like, or something that makes sense, like religion or a political stance or a diet, roots are planted and – for most of us – they are permanent. They’re permanent mainly because it’s easier that way. It takes less work to blindly cling to dogma. It’s hard (and humbling) to reevaluate an entire belief system and start over. We prefer the path of least resistance, and we’d simply rather not think too hard. Once the roots of a dogmatic belief find purchase in the hard packed earth of the lazy mind, they’re staying put.
We’re not all like that, though. Some of us have fertile minds, brains that aren’t burdened by an ego that refuses to believe it might be wrong about something. Others are just genuinely curious and thirsty for more knowledge (from any source); these are the same type of minds that shaped our evolutionary progress and brought us tools, mastery of fire, and exploration of new lands. They don’t brush aside graphs or ignore studies that challenge their beliefs. They can’t, because to ignore the truth is to oppose their very nature, no matter the inconvenience.
We’ve all heard the supposedly universal protocol standards for polite company: don’t talk politics, religion, or sex. Not on a first date, and definitely not when you meet your future wife’s parents. It’s not so much that these are impossible topics to discuss calmly and rationally without insults, ad hominem, or physical violence entering the fray, because it can happen. Measured debate on controversial topics does take place, and it’s possible for two people to hold directly oppositional views, express those views, and still remain amicable. It’s just highly unlikely given our propensity to cling to dogma at all cost (and we’ve got untold wars and death and destruction to show for it) and the rarity of people with thinking, fertile, thirsty minds.
A new forbidden topic has emerged, though: diet. I’d even say a diet, for many, is the single most entrenched aspect of a their identity, more than religion (not everyone practices, but everyone has to eat) and more than politics (who isn’t fed up with politics nowadays?). We literally are what we eat, and what we eat isn’t just an isolated characteristic. It’s intertwined with politics (veganism is as much a declarative political statement as it is a nutritional one) and religion. For some, it even becomes a religion with its own set of morals and laws. Diet as absolute dogma can be far more problematic than religious or political dogmas in many ways. See, at least there’s separation of church and state in this country; with diet, though, there’s that looming institutional triangular standard literally ordained by government to inform and (essentially) coerce unwitting citizens into a certain way of eating. Maybe if the nutritional pyramid were built on the backs of rigorous science and evolutionary biology it wouldn’t be so bad, but its blueprints were drawn up by Big Agra and Big Pharma (or worse, terrible, bumbling, bad science).
You’re here, on this site, because you recognize that the official dietary dogma is misguided at best and murderous at worst. You realize that, whatever your religious (non)belief, humans are “designed” to eat a certain way – and that the evolutionary diet is totally incompatible with the reigning dogma. I’m here every day because I see a real chance to make a difference. I see people making positive changes, extending their lives and improving their health. Every day, there’s a different success story in my inbox, but I never get sick of them. We have assumed the mantle of our innovating forebears, those Groks and Grokettes that dared to crack an auroch’s tibia and extract the strange delicious stuff inside, or follow the animals to new lands and new opportunities. We could have died out with the Neanderthal, but we were far too curious and capable to let that happen. Ours is a legacy of pursuing knowledge. It’s all we know.
But you know what? I’m starting to notice that old dogmatic view creep in to the Primal community. Those immovable roots are taking hold. On one hand, it’s understandable. When you’ve got the weight of the evidence in your favor, it’s easy to get cocky and dismissive of other views. I mean, don’t get me wrong; I believe the Primal Blueprint to be the path to health, strength, and energy (I wouldn’t have written a book called The Primal Blueprint if I didn’t think that!). I just want to stress that the foundation of the PB and MDA is science – ignored, brushed aside, inconvenient-to-CW science, but science all the same. And, like all good science, it’s constantly being challenged and refined. It needs to be challenged. When I started putting together the PB all those years ago, I was challenging the dietary wisdom I held near and dear to my heart for decades. Decades! And I didn’t stop there. Early readers might recall my prescribing “limited grains” way back when. I realized my error, took a closer look at the science on grains, and changed my stance accordingly. Now I’m just about as big an opponent of grains as one can be.
That’s how you’ve got to do it. You have to welcome challenges and reevaluate your dietary dogmas as needed. I’m certainly of the opinion that we’ve got things pretty well covered with the PB, but it never hurts to refine your argument or gather new evidence. If someone questions the Primal stance on grains, don’t casually dismiss them – convince them! (Of course, if hard data doesn’t convince, don’t wear yourself out.) Even if you’re upset or frustrated and he or she is being clearly obstructionist, think of the debate as rust removal, as a way to bone up on the latest studies and clinical data in support of the high fat Primal Blueprint diet. There’s a whole wide world of people who will actively challenge your evolutionary dietary views, usually with half-truths and CW nonsense, but there are formidable opponents who won’t be so easily swayed or dismissed. You’ve got to be on your game.
I honestly think we have the opportunity to reach more people. The Primal/paleo communities are growing and improving and spreading like wildfire. We have the chance to be at the forefront of a revolution of how we approach food in this country (and this world), but we run the risk of becoming what we rail against: dietary dogma. We should never let stagnation set in, and dogmas and ideologies stagnate as a rule, by definition. You don’t want to force people into accepting the Primal life. You just want to give them the tools to change their life and reevaluate everything they’ve ever been taught about nutrition and fitness.
The forum is one such tool, and it’s a fantastic one for the most part. What we don’t want, though, is name calling or one-upping. No know-it-alls that patronize beginners. That’s beside the point. It’s supposed to be a community of like-minded individuals (sprinkled with a few skeptics and contrarians to keep us honest!) supporting one another in our effort to find truth and change our lives for the better. Support, of course, means challenging each other’s beliefs, but it should be done with real facts.
Don’t get me wrong. I love the heated debates that take place every day, as long as they remain actual debates with actual arguments. I love the fact that support systems and impromptu experts on various topics have sprung up. I like how forum members have a sort of Batcall for Tarlach when it’s a carnivore question or for Griff when it’s about lipid panels. I love almost everything about the forum, but I don’t like the creeping sense of dogma.
So, how about we watch out for that and nip it in the bud? I’ve been submerged in dietary and fitness dogma, and it ain’t pretty. Believe me: avoiding it will only make us stronger. Question your beliefs and challenge the Primal Blueprint eating strategy. Even if the PB doesn’t catch on and go mainstream, at least we’ll know we’re being honest with ourselves and consistent in our application of science to our diet.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this so hit me up with a comment. Thanks, everyone.
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
I predict in the next ten years we’re going to learn a lot more about genetics and how to tailor one’s diet to one’s genotype. Of course gene expression and epigenetics play just as big a role, but genotype is still important. I wonder what we’ll learn?
The paleo crowd (I include myself) pays a lot of attention to carbs and insulin, but not as much to salt, advanced glycation end-products, and other factors that may influence health. It’s good to zoom out now and then and consider the big picture. I love the spirit of this post and the comments!
Lyle McD “completely” tore apart Taubes? Musta missed that. Got a URL?
Here’s a good review of GCBC by a scientist who actually understands thermodynamics.
http://entropyproduction.blogspot.com/2009/02/all-medical-science-is-wrong-within-95.html
McDonald does not.
“Lyle McDonald Gary Taubes calories” yields no results. I asked for a URL, not a junk search.
Looked at Google’s substitute results and can’t say I’m impressed. Lyle picks out a few things he disagrees with and then sums up by saying, “Taubes book is garbage.”
This is not a useful or accurate summary of a book that in 601 pages systematically strips away much of the nonsense surrounding present dietary advice for suporting health and preventing disease. Does Taube’s book have flaws? Yes. Is it garbage? Not by a long shot. Good Calories, Bad Calories is an important if somewhat overly didactic work that will benefit the reader who reads carefully without prejudice or favor.
Taubes most important contribution is in bringing attention away from the nonsense surrounding “reducing diets” and back to what is most important. As Taubes says in his Epilogue, “The scientific obligation… is to establish the cause of obesity, diabetes, and the chronic diseases of civilization beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Taubes makes a strong case in his 601 pages that processed carbohydrates like refined sugar and flour make a unique and devastating contribution to these problems. Lyle’s blanket dismissal of Taubes book over a few points he disagrees with cherry picks evidence the same way he accuses Taubes of doing. This is not a scientific attitude. We must always guard against our own confirmation bias if we are to learn anything new. Lyle’s a very smart guy. It’s too bad if he’s forgetting to watch out for the blinding effects of self certainty.
Don’t let Lyle’s narrow focus on a minor subject like the existence or non-existence of a “metabolic advantage” blind you to the very real points raised by Taubes on a much broader plane.
it’s like the Lyle McDonald fan club put out a hit on Marks’ forum. LOL
Actually, they sorta did. There’s a thread on his forum. Some of them are bagging on Mark’s body composition, yet they fail to post pictures of themselves… and are probably a 1/3 his age.
oh Jane – if you won’t read the book (which answers your question) don’t expect any one here to take your comments seriously. But just because we can’t fully re-create Grok’s diet and environment doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to get close.
It’s not often that we will take drastic action with a commenter, since we encourage debate. In fact, there actually aren’t that many naysayers out there. Having said that, you’ll note that we have removed comments from Jane Carraro, MichaelS, Rick Santos and Lisa because a) they are all the same person and b) he/she just couldn’t play nice.
If he-she-they looked into the history of the peoples who ate the crap he was advocating as part of the “healthiest people in the world” diets, he would have found that:
A.) Yes they did/do eat those things
B.) They fermented the toxins out
These were conveniently forgotten practices when man started cranking out high volume & industrialized versions of these crops.
Thank you very much for this post.
I have been pondering the same things of late, and am amazed at how utterly different people can be convinced of the most polarised things. It’s so difficult to keep uprooting one’s own views in order to refine or re-learn, because as humans I think we immediately want stability and security. So we seek what confirms our existing views, and such company that agrees with us.
I applaud the constant struggle of a “fertile mind”, but I am also a little wary of a society where intelligent people do not dare state a concrete opinion, and the intellectually understimulated instead holler categorical statements right, left and centre. (Such as what apparently happened with the McGovern report.)
Again, Mark, thank you for all the work you put into this and how accessible yet scientifically strict and sound this blog is.
My story is a lesson on how bad dietary rules can replace common sense.
I was a strict vegan for 3 years then a vegan raw fooder for 7 years after that. I had very strong emotional and ethical reasons for doing so and they kept me in this lifestyle. The idea of eating meat was abhorrent to me and upset my whole system and psyche due in part to the constant negative reinforcement of meat being bad all around by all the groups I associated with and the vegan diet gurus. And so I never explored eating any other way until I developed a tooth abscess during a citrus juice fast a few months ago. It was my third tooth abysses in 4 years of being a raw vegan and the second on the same tooth (I had already had a root canal on that one 3 years previously due to an abscess). MInd you, I had never had any abscesses before I became a raw fooder and in fact, was told by several Dentists that I would go to the grave with my teeth, they are that strong and healthy. So when that occurred I had to seriously re-evaluate my lifestyle when I was thought I was being so health conscious and following all the rules outlined by trendy raw food “gurus”.
Upon evaluation (thank God that I was still was able to think for myself!) I realized just how much sugar and citrus I was consuming on a daily basis and how my body was responding to all the sweet sticky desserts, fruits and fruits juices, dates, incessant use of agave and honey and the like in a most powerful way. Why had I done eaten all this sugar? I recall way back when I was told by one famous raw food guru that I could literally eat dessert all day long as long as it was raw. On top of that I was liberally consuming raw chocolate and Kombucha, two other often called raw health foods which also contain sugar plus caffeine and small amounts of alcohol. My body was literally deteriorating due to the over consumption of all of these irritating and harmful substances and I didn’t feel well either. I had constant headaches and felt hungry all the time and I was aging prematurely (developing fine lines and dark circles under my eyes when previously there had been none. I was blessed to have always looked many years younger than I was so this was another strong signal that something was wrong. I was highly concerned about all this yet fear kept me from exploring other dietary options until that last tooth abscess. Why would I question what I was doing when I was being told by so called raw food experts that I was doing the best for myself to avoid any future health issues (and yes they do tell you that!). At my first vegetarian potluck a well known vegan came up to me and told me “congratulations, you’ve just made the decision to avoid heart disease, diabetes and arteriosclerosis”. Well the 4th abscess was my wake-up call that I was wrong and so were they. After my tooth abscess was healed about 3 months ago I knew I had to make some changes. It took me 2 months of research to decide on the Primal plan. At this stage I really thought it couldn’t do me any more harm and at least I would enjoy eating real food again.
I literally sweated with my first bite of meat. I had had 10 years of brainwashing to overcome and it wasn’t easy. I thought I would die eating all the meat, eggs and dairy, but I was determined to stick to it and see what happens. My body had a difficult time adjusting at first. I had lost the ability to digest animal protein so I had to eat it in small amounts working my way up to bacon AND eggs for breakfast. But after two weeks of doing Primal I was starting to notice real improvement. I no longer had headaches, felt tired in the afternoon or right after eating. I no longer felt hungry or deprived all the time or slept poorly or had the shakes. I also no longer felt irritable or just plain miserable (it can also be very lonely doing only raw food). I also no longer had foggy head. Being a hypoglycemic, that was a constant problem. Best of all, I was loving what I ate and no longer felt deprived and was even downright happy to be able to eat all the foods I really loved and craved.
Well, this all taught me a very valuable lesson in reality vs. delusion and about giving other people that much power over your life. It’s a dangerous trap that many of us fall into at one time or another. I’m grateful that survival is our only instinct because it’s survival that made me wise up and realize my primal needs and how denying them was seriously harming me. The Primal program turned out to be the best dietary program for me and for my husband too by the way. He also started the Primal way of eating right alongside me and has overcome 20 years of being overweight due to trying to maintain a low fat high carb diet. He lost 12 pounds in 4 weeks and is looking and feeling better than ever. Even though I did make the change in time, I often ponder on how far I would have let my health go adhering to my own dogma and the dogma of those I chose to listen to. Thank you Mark from both of us. I don’t hold you up as a guru or anything but I sure am happy that I found your site and all the information you present. It really impacted my life and my husband’s in a very positive way.
Thanks for this Chris.
Chris, I feel for you! I too have been vegan (100%) since 1985 and raw since 1999 (100% except for about for or five cooked carb snacks within that time), but I was lucky to pay attention to the fundamentals of nutrition and not get hooked into any dogma. It is not that easy, but my tenacity only led me to success. I know many others (not my own clients) who have failed on a raw vegan diet, but it was only b/c they failed to eat properly. Cooked or raw, meat or veg, you have to adhere to the proven basics of human physiology. Of course it is much much less work to eat the way our fast food packaged cooked hi processed refined society eats. BUT even if you choose the easy way out, you still have to limit your animal food intake to less than 5% total calories, limit processed foods like pasta and rice and bread, and of course eliminate all the sweet snacks and so-called “food” that most people gorge on. Fruit is still the predominant food when it comes to health and athletic prowess.
“Chris, I feel for you! I too have been vegan (100%) since 1985 and raw since 1999 (100% except for about for or five cooked carb snacks within that time), but I was lucky to pay attention to the fundamentals of nutrition and not get hooked into any dogma.”
Not sure where to even begin with that. I wonder if vegans are capable of understanding what they say. I would consider the quoted statement as very strong evidence that veganism destroys the ability to think clearly.
Paleocultists? Paleotards? I don’t care how RIGHT or GREAT a person’s arguments are… if they can’t argue facts without descending to ABUSIVE AD HOMINEMS, I don’t wish to converse with them.
Be well, Jane. Good bye.
Hi Jane;
I think your true colors are shining through.I tried to read Lyle McDonald’s stuff, as I was supremely interested in his ideas on endurance training. However, not only was it long winded and sleep inducing, it didn’t provide me with any information I didn’t know.
I think any group that sources a forum of similar beliefs to their own is going to be percieved as dogmatic, even Lyle McDonald’s crew.
We just might be a little more awake over here.
Jane, what makes you think that personal attacks will win people over to your point of view?
“You’ll be hard pressed to find people more dogmatic than the paleocultists/paleotards.
Lyle McDonald (who knows a lot about nutrients) does not care for these types either.”
I have read McDonald (3 of his books many of his forum posts). I agree he knows a lot more than most do about diet/nutrition. However, I have also read and researched others who know a lot more than most on the subject and I don’t see McDonald as the “all knowing” source on this subject.
I do however find your statement regarding “more dogmatic than _______ (fill in the blank)” extremely ironic. In my own experience reading through McDonald’s forum, I found it to be the “most dogmatic” I have ever visited. He seems to take great pleasure in humiliating members of his own forum who post there seeking help. His method of debate involves making it clear that anyone who challenges his views is wrong and does not deserve a response beyond being called an idiot or some other derogatory name … much like you have been doing on this thread. I have also noticed that some of his forum disciples follow his same method of debate.
Although I am still a member of McDonald’s forum (I only posted there about 4 or 5 times) I no longer visit there since I didn’t enjoy being ridiculed for asking a couple of basic questions … not to mention not even getting a useful answer to my questions. I think reading his books are a fine source of information to add to the knowledge base of anyone wanting to learn about human nutrition … but the BodyRecomposition Support Forums are anything but support.
Larry, I am not allowed to give medical advice. All I can say is, if it were I, I would get a new doctor. He clearly doesn’t get it. Give him a copy of The Primal Blueprint for Christmas
Ask your doctor if he’s read:
“Lipid levels in patients hospitalized with coronary artery disease: An analysis of 136,905 hospitalizations in Get With The Guidelines”
Sachdeva et al
(Am Heart J 2009;157:111-7.e2.)
Key Finding:
Average total cholesterol on admission to hospital for myocardial infarction (heart attack) was 174. So what good is getting your cholesterol in that range going to do?
In addition to PB, pick up a copy of “Politically Incorrect Nutrition” and read the chapter on Cholesterol; also I’ve found this blog very helpful:
http://www.paleonu.com/get-started/
Like others have said before, I find it most helpful to read all I can–I look at what similarities there are as well as differences; I check out the research cited; and, of course, I factor in how I FEEL as I alter my lifestyle. I consider myself a very much a novice to the PB/Paleo way of eating/exercise, etc.
This topic has been timely and helpful.
Wow, what a coincidence. I’ve been reading this study and doing background digging for a blog entry for the last few hours.
The conclusions will blow your mind. Clearly these researchers do not understand their own findings.
Yea, Ben.
I’m still reeling over that thing, having gone over it with a fine tooth comb. What’s so amazing is the cognitive dissonance.
Essentially, all the important data is there, and they don’t seem to play loose with the facts. It’s in the conclusions.
So, lipid levels are lower for people admitted for CAD events so what’s the conclusion if you’re operating from the premise that lipids cause CVD? Well, then we need to lower LDL EVEN MORE!
Let’s not question the premise.
This is religion, not science.
They’re being paid quite well not to understand.
Look at the author disclosures. Funding from Abbot, Accumetrics, AstraZeneca, Bristol-Myers Squibb, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck, Sanofi-Aventis, Schering Plough, and Pfizer. Where is their motive to “get it”?
“Truth never triumphs, it’s opponents just die out.”
~~ Max Planck ~~
(„Die Wahrheit triumphiert nie, ihre Gegner sterben nur aus.“)
Here’s another nugget from the CAD hospital admissions study:
“The present study demonstrates that among patients hospitalized with CAD,the admission lipid levels are below that of the general population.”
Read that again… and again… till it sinks in…
So why do we want to lower lipids, doctors? So we can INCREASE our chances of a heart attack? In creh deeeee bluh!
Ben:
Here’s that blog post incorporating that study:
http://su.pr/33nNvx
Well said.
Basically the way I feel. I have TREMENDOUS respect for Lyle’s knowledge and research, but he’s not all knowing by a long shot.
Well said.
Basically the way I feel. I have TREMENDOUS respect for Lyle’s knowledge and research, but he’s not all knowing by a long shot.
Wait. Paleotard? I missed this exchange, but I think I’m adopting that as a new monniker. That’s absolutely brilliant.
100% proud PALEOTARD
It has kind of a ring to it. Thank you, random sockpuppeter!