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Let me introduce myself. My name is Mark Sisson. I’m 63 years young. I live and work in Malibu, California. In a past life I was a professional marathoner and triathlete. Now my life goal is to help 100 million people get healthy. I started this blog in 2006 to empower people to take full responsibility for their own health and enjoyment of life by investigating, discussing, and critically rethinking everything we’ve assumed to be true about health and wellness...

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October 08, 2008

Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat?

By Worker Bee
82 Comments

We get this question from time to time, and perhaps many of you, Primal Blueprint fans, do as well. Sometimes it comes as earnest curiosity, other times as a skeptic’s challenge. Either way, we think it’s an inquiry worth delving into. Care to join us?

First off, one note of reality/clarification. Sometimes we hear the criticism that the Primal Blueprint means eating obnoxious amounts of protein. This really isn’t so. In fact, in the scheme of diets out there, the Primal Blueprint doesn’t really qualify as a high protein diet. We usually recommend between 0.7 and 1.0 grams of protein per pound of lean mass. For the average person (i.e. not competing in the body building realm), this really isn’t that much. Check out Mark’s daily diet breakdown and our “How to Eat Enough Protein” posts for a brush up with more info and cool graphs.

But back to the common criticism… Paleo critics often argue that Grok and his clan would’ve never eaten as much meat as the paleo diet recommends – usually, they add, because they never could have caught that much. (Grok takes offense at their low estimation of his hunting talents, by the way.) We’ll give the critics this: it’s true that the evidence suggests variation among the eating habits of both ancient and modern hunter-gatherers. Some groups, typically those closer to the equator, consume more plants and less protein. Others, typically those at higher latitudes, consume fewer plants and more animals. The reason behind this divergence is, of course, the availability of year-round plant sources for foraging (or lack thereof). The savannahs of Africa offer more consistent plant abundance than, say, the tundra of North America where you only get limited seasonal offerings. It’s little surprise that the diets of their respective hunter-gatherer peoples show it. Furthermore, estimating the protein intake of ancient groups is hardly an easy or exact endeavor. Nonetheless, here’s why we think Grok was a meat lover.

First, we can examine the evidence surrounding the growing importance of meat during and for human evolution. Plant-based foods were, as we said, only seasonally available in many regions. Some scientists speculate that developed reliance on animal-based energy sources allowed humans to migrate into these areas that offered only limited and seasonal plant food sources. These migrations, particularly those far northward, would have meant significant reliance on animal fat and protein in dietary breakdown.

Likewise, researchers have the ability to compare what is known about human evolution and dietary shifts with physiological patterns seen in other primates today. From this kind of analysis, researchers have determined early humans’ development of “meat-adaptive” genes that helped humans uniquely process the natural fat and (in those days) inevitable parasites in meat, an ability that isn’t found to the same degree in other related primates. Once humans began consuming meat as a central diet staple some 2 ½ million years ago, the species experienced a surge in life span and competitive benefits in the fight for survival.

But as for the amount of meat, what is the significance of animal sources in Grok’s diet? Research of ancient and existing hunter-gatherer societies offers some expansive and telling contexts. Analysis suggests (PDF) that prehistoric hunter-gatherer groups, allowing for regional variation, generally received around 50% of their nutrition from animal sources (both protein and fat from land game and fish). Modern hunter-gatherer societies obtain 56-65% of their nutritional intake from fish and hunted game.

Other analyses reveal similar results. An often referenced study from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition estimates hunter-gatherer animal food sources constituting between 45-65% of their total energy intake. The researchers point out that previous research had only taken into account the muscle tissue of game animals as nutrition source, whereas most hunting societies typically used the full potential of the “edible carcass,” which included organ meats, fat, and even bone marrow. (No use wastin’ good eatin’!) Their efficiency meant a higher nutritional gain per hunt than researchers estimated in the past. The researchers also believe that tribal societies likely relied more on large game hunt than others have previously suggested. The added fat in larger animals, they say, would have offered a better energy gain (eating) versus energy expender (hunting) opportunity. All that sprinting about had to be worth it, and a mammoth just offered more bang for the buck than a jack rabbit. Grok was no simpleton, mind you.

Finally, what’s pretty certain is the inherent variability of Grok’s daily diet. When it came to meat in those good old, primal days, it was likely feast or famine when it came to game flesh. Without the benefits of a deep freezer or even simple ice house, meat could go bad quickly. (Of course, this presents one of the benefits of living in the brutal tundra.) Grok and his entourage chowed down the day of the hunt, likely gorging themselves because they knew it behooved them to do so. (A large hunt wasn’t the stuff of every day.) In more recent pre-agricultural times (and in many remaining hunter-gatherer groups) the following days would involve the laborious work of drying meat for longer term use. In between larger hunts, it’s likely that the group used the dried meat as well as smaller game for daily subsistence.

Because Grok’s daily diet was varied, so too is the PB plan. Enter the concept of Intermittent Fasting. Though fasting may conjure associations of new age, the PB includes it (intermittent style) precisely because it’s reflective of the primal age. Likewise, we put less emphasis on day to day caloric breakdowns – and schedules – than we do on long term dietary patterns (i.e. how much protein you tend to eat in a given week or two week period). Check out our Context of Calories post for more on the concept.

What’s clear from the research is this: protein (along with animal fat) was a much more significant part of hunter-gatherer diets than it is in today’s dietary recommendations. The human body evolved to allow for and strategically use (and release when necessary) additional protein intake. Sure, our dear Grok may not have had the benefits of readily available, packaged meats at all hours of every day like we do; however, is it unreasonable to consider the possibility that modern day availability of meat offers us the most ideal (physiologically speaking) opportunity? With some key gestures toward ancient eating patterns (e.g. IF), perhaps we have the chance to eat enough quality meat consistently enough to achieve truly optimal functioning, a state Grok would’ve tipped his hat to. (Well, if he’d had one, we suppose.) Hmmm. Interesting idea. (Sometimes we tend to get so down on modern living and all….)

So, heard or considered this question before? What are your thoughts on how Grok had it and what we can glean from his Primal model?

Luna Park, oudodou, Alaina B. Flickr Photos (CC)

Further Reading:

Would Grok Chow the Cheese Plate?

Didn’t Grok Eat Raw Meat?

The Primal Eating Plan for Dogs

High Fat and Healthy: The Maasai Keep on Walking

Cranky Fitness: Calorie Restriction, Protein and Longevity

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82 Comments on "Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat?"

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Son of Grok
Son of Grok
7 years 11 months ago
One thing that I have often thought of when I have pondered this question is that Groks that lived coastally probably had no problem eating a lot of meat a lot of the time. Fishing isn’t exactly difficult to learn and once proficient, caching fish daily isnt out of the question at all. They also had the opportunity to catch lobster and crab and dig oysters. I know that when we took our last vacation, one of the local hotel staff swam out every day with just a spear and came back with a fish or lobster. This was in… Read more »
Andrew
7 years 11 months ago

First off, great article! Another argument to the “meat non-believers” comes from a book called ‘Meat Eating and Human Evolution’ by Craig B. Stanford and Henry T Bunn. In their conclusions, the authors, “…suggest that increased access to animal protein and fat enabled early hominids to break free from the constraints that limit the prenatal brain growth of other haplorhines [other primates].”
Therefore, in order to produce babies with larger brains than other primates (which our ancestors clearly accomplished), early humans would have had to incorporate much more meat into their diets than previously estimated.

Amy
7 years 11 months ago

I know almost nothing about the primal diet, as I’ve only recently stumbled across this site (via MizFit). I wonder, however, if one’s ethnic background might inform the amount of & types of meat that can be eaten/tolerated – or if we’re all so mixed & modernized that it wouldn’t/shouldn’t matter.

My primary genetic make-up is Norwegian – but very northern Norwegian (Lappland area), so perhaps that’s why I enjoy my venison steaks so much 🙂

Sasquatch
7 years 11 months ago
I read that AJCN Cordain study a while back. Great paper. He does indeed say that HGs got 54-65% of their calories from animal sources, but that’s a bit misleading. If you crunch the numbers yourself, the average percentage is over 66%. The median category is 66-75%! I think he’s actually underestimating the numbers, because his analysis has a tendency to underestimate the fat content of animal foods. This is because he uses “representative” values for fat content that are from lean animals, whereas HGs went for the fattest animals they could get. Another interesting thing about HGs from that… Read more »
Sasquatch
7 years 11 months ago

Oops, I meant 45-65%.

Ryan
Ryan
7 years 11 months ago

Just look at eskimos, they eat nothing but meat and don’t consider plants to be food. The only time they eat anything other than meat is when they’re starving, during which time there is one root they’ll add to their diet. I got this from Good Calories, Bad Calories.

Methuselah - Pay Now Live Later
7 years 11 months ago

I think you are spot on with the idea that just because Grok didn’t get meat every day it doesn’t mean getting meat every day is not optimal. I have thought about this myself in the context of other things like hydration – see this article if you are interested – this article.

Anna
7 years 11 months ago
And how about those grubs, bugs, and creepy crawlies? I suppose it is insect meat, but not meat as we conventionally think of it. Even Grok’s kids could have helped to procure those nutritious foods. Insects provide lots of great protein and fatty acids and generally easy to find under logs, etc. Certain preparation techniques make insects a perfect on-the-go food, too. That source of nutrition isn’t common in western diets today, but it’s still eaten in many parts of the world today. yes, aardvarks still have some competition. When I was in Japan about 8 years ago, we loaded… Read more »
sarena
7 years 11 months ago

Anna, did you really give them to your friends and relatives without their knowledge?? Did you get any feedback??

Hey lucky you werent stopped in customs!!

Dr Dan
7 years 11 months ago

I think your website is great!!! Thanks

Anna
7 years 11 months ago
Rest assured, Sarena, all the recipients of the fried crickets & such could easily see the contents through the clear plastic bags, even if they couldn’t read Kanji. And regarding Customs, I’ve found that non-perishable packaged foods like this usually get through without issue, though I always declare I have nonperishable packaged snacks – I think they assume crackers & cookies, & such (and I occasionally have to go to one more station to show the items). Fresh and potentially spoiled food items (like meat, cheese), not to mention dutiable (?) or restricted items (like caviar) are the things that… Read more »
Sally
Sally
7 years 11 months ago

Mark or Aaron, what are your thoughts on krill oil? Do you think it is better than fish oil as far as bioavailability of Omega-3s?

Mark Sisson
7 years 11 months ago
Hello, Sally, Thanks for the question. I’ve touched on this in the past. Check it out: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/index.php?s=krill+oil Also, Tim Ferris of the 4 Hour Work Week wrote about Krill Oil awhile back. I chimed in. Here’s his post: http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/07/23/krill-oil-48x-better-than-fish-oil/ Here’s my comment: Interesting choice of headline. It’s a bit sensationalist to suggest that krill is “48x” as potent as fish oil. The line you derive that headline from simply suggests that the natural ORAC (antioxidant) capacity of krill is 48x higher than that of fish oil. But no one in their right mind takes either for its antioxidant capacity. For… Read more »
Joe
Joe
5 years 11 months ago
Hi Mark, I know this is an old post, but I’ve only recently started reading your blog so have a lot of catching up to do 🙂 Personally I find it a little worrying that if we continue to fish further down our oceans food chain as we discover the nutritional benefits these little critters offer and/or we fish the larger creatures to/close to extinction, we are competing with other animals higher up that chain. Example: There have been increasing numbers of whales washing up on the coasts of New Zealand (around 10,000 in the past 30 years!), which are… Read more »
Kurt
Kurt
7 years 11 months ago

You mention that people around the equator would have been eating more vegetable/plant matter than those at higher latitudes. Because homo sapiens sapiens arose in basically equatorial Africa, aren’t they the Grok you want to emulate? Understanding that you are using evolutionary arguments, shouldn’t you focus exclusively on the evolutionary lineage, and not on offshoots?

Mark Sisson
7 years 11 months ago
Kurt, good point. When I say the equatorial ancestors ate more plants, it doesn’t mean they ate little meat – just maybe a little less. It also means they might have had access to more plant matter – all the time. But even when you consider seasonal variations when migrating, you do get copious amounts of plants well into the 60 north and 45 south latitudes, so all ancestors except maybe Inuit and the like had access to both. But meat was the driver of our evolution. All homo sapiens ancestors ate animals and insects (which is how we got… Read more »
Majorie
Majorie
5 years 3 months ago
Hi, I stumbled unto this site just recently. I just want to comment about people in the equator dietary habits. I’m from Sabah, Malaysia which used to be known as North Borneo. My mom used to tell me that back in the days, people rarely eat vegetables that much. Probably because the main method of cooking was boiling and they did not have access to simple seasoning like salt. Boiled vegetables without seasoning wasn’t exactly delicious. They ate lots of meat and fruits. When they picked up more complex cooking style, eating vegetables became more popular. Today, everyone in Sabah… Read more »
Binko
Binko
7 years 11 months ago
The main problem with adding a lot of meat to your diet is that the commonly available feedlot beef and pork you buy at the supermarket or eat at a restaurant is pretty nasty stuff. The animals are kept in horrid conditions, heavily drugged and fed really wretched stuff like cheap flaked corn mixed with rendered animal fat. My experience is that very few people who embrace the primal concept are willing to go to the great trouble of obtaining and eating only top quality grass fed and grass finished meat. Instead they simply eat more of the health damaging… Read more »
Son of Grok
Son of Grok
7 years 11 months ago

Binko,

I think you will find that many people here go that extra mile. I know that many of us focus on grass-fed hormone free meats. We are also picky about the fish we eat. Check out Mark’s posts on Wild Vs. Farmed fished. Mark also has posts on eggs and what are truly quality eggs. Many of us also go for handpicked local hormone free healthy fed and excersiced chicken eggs.

Anna
7 years 11 months ago
Binko, you are right, most don’t. But more and more do. I’m one of those. I have half a range fed-bison in my freezer, as well as pork, beef, lamb, goat, and chicken I buy from a couple in my county who raise a few animals in a clean humane way on their rural lot, then have them processed at a local place. More than a few people I know are coming back to meats other than fish after many years of abstinence (I consider fish meat, BTW), now that grass-fed and “clean” sources are more available. I find the… Read more »
Asclepius
Asclepius
7 years 11 months ago
IIRC Cordain, Eades and Devany all note that the bones of Grok in 15000 BC show a powerfully built 6ft predator – at least as big if not bigger than today’s 6ft athletes (think of Linford Christie’s awesome physique circa 1992). Archeological evidence shows that settled agriculture began 10000-15000 years ago in the Middle East/Mediterranean region – and anyone who has visited the Mediterranean will be aware of what I think Devany calls the ‘Mediterranean Physique’. Basically, small. In contrast, North Europeans took to settled agriculture (and so a plant based diet), much later, and are by comparison ‘generally’ much… Read more »
Lars
Lars
6 years 11 months ago

Yep, they were large, dumb, slow Neanderthals that quickly got overpowered and out-competed by tuber-eating, grain-powered glucose-fuelled Homo sapiens as they moved north for the second time.

More meat equals big, slow, dumb.

Jim
Jim
5 years 7 months ago

Nope. The Neanderthals were beaten by equally carnivorous (but much better equipped, and more physically well suited***)Homo Sapiens. The Neanderthals just couldn’t compete with their more advanced cousins.

***Neanderthal’s bone structure (hips and such) were not as suited for running.

DUde
DUde
3 years 10 months ago

You can’t just say “no” to people fgt.

Anna
7 years 11 months ago

Here’s an interesting history of height. Nutrition and diet are definitely involved, perhaps more than we commonly think.

http://www.macleans.ca/science/technology/article.jsp?content=20050404_103140_103140

http://dutch-history.suite101.com/article.cfm/why_are_the_dutch_so_tall

Anna
7 years 11 months ago

Here’s another interesting article on the history of height data and the connection to nutrition, from the New Yorker. It’s long, but very informative.

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/04/05/040405fa_fact?currentPage=all

Reina
3 years 9 months ago

I’m touched!Well did you acatluly eat them?A pastry chef-instructor changed my life when he told me that I should hold the pastry bag with my left hand instead of my right hand (I’m right-handed): Hold the bag at the top with your left hand, and use your right hand to hold a smaller section, nearer the tip, for better control. I’ve never looked back.Yours look beautiful, though. And nicely crusty.

trackback
7 years 11 months ago

[…] pounds, Coke (soda or pop to you non-Southerners) with or without ice, atomic cake, meant to munch meat, drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable substances, Heart Attack Grill (not […]

Donna
Donna
7 years 11 months ago

If Grok ate Elk, he had a great tasting meal! It’s definitely my favorite in taste. Also, Elk is a very lean meat and much higher in protein than cow meat and chicken. The taste of Elk is out of this world!

Anna
7 years 11 months ago
My sister and her husband hunt; they would definitely agree on the taste of elk and caribou. But I think modern humans have the fat/protein thing backwards. The best nutrition in game isn’t necessarily the muscle meat. Consider that in late autumn, when the animals are at the peak of their nutritional density (they’re fat! in preparation for winter), and human-edible plant matter would have been dwindling (or unavailable if covered with snow already on buried in frozen ground) humans would have been after that elk fat much more than the meat. The temps would stay cold enough for lengthy… Read more »
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7 years 11 months ago

[…] Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat? […]

Son of Grok
Son of Grok
7 years 11 months ago

Good point Anna,

Rabbit starvation or Protien Poisoning is common knowledge for survivalists. You can’t eat only lean meat… or you die. You need those fats!

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[…] last week’s post Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat?, we cited research highlighting the substantial role that animal sources (fish/meat, fat/protein) […]

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[…] Did Grok eat that much meat? – Mark’s Daily Apple […]

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[…] Did Grok Really Eat that Much Meat? […]

Marissa
Marissa
7 years 5 months ago

Mark,
As a strapping young college student I do not have the option of buying organic grass-fed free-range meat YET. However, I still follow paleo in all other respects. Needless to say I am eating a lot of meat, but not the best quality. I am most likely ingesting large amounts of nitrites and other junk because of this. Is this still better than eating a traditional low fat, grain based diet? I certainly feel better than I used to.

Mark Sisson
7 years 5 months ago
Marissa, Don’t get down because you can’t afford to go 100% Primal. If you can’t get your hands on the best quality meats make sure you trim the fat off and choose the least processed versions of meat you can afford. A lean steak, chicken breast or pork chop instead of slim jims, fried fish and who-knows-what’s-in-it sausage. If you feel better keep doing what you are doing and refine your eating plan over time and as your circumstances change. Also, remember that you don’t have to eat loads of meat. Though meat is featured predominantly in the Primal Blueprint… Read more »
Justin
Justin
7 years 5 months ago

Should those of us eating grass-fed beef on a daily basis (as well as ostrich on occasion) be concerned about having too much iron in our diet? I’ve read that males that eat a lot of iron-rich foods could have potential problems.

Mark Sisson
7 years 5 months ago

Justin, it’s true that men tend to aggregate (store) iron over time, so I’d try to vary my protein intake to include fish, fowl, eggs, etc in addition to good ol’ red meat. If you are working out adequately and otherwise eating well, iron shouldn’t be a problem. Of course, you could always get it tested to be sure…

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[…] Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat? […]

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[…] Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat? […]

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[…] (in a pattern that blends both intense and casual), getting enough sleep, eating more fat and protein. The rest is just gravy (not literally, of […]

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[…] the Paleo Diet and Primal Blueprint both suggest, limit carb intake (especially grains), eat more protein and include lots of veggies as a base. But in the midst of this common ground are some significant […]

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[…] Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat? – Oct. 8 […]

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[…] one would ever call the Primal Blueprint a protein-sparing plan, but you’re going to have to eat even more than before. Stuff yourself. I always say that body composition is 80% diet, and that goes for putting on mass […]

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[…] and magnesium) on mental functioning and mood. Furthermore, make sure you include plenty of quality protein in your diet. Amino acids are vital precursors to […]

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6 years 9 months ago

[…] Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat? […]

Baerdric
Baerdric
6 years 7 months ago

I just wanted to chime in on the issue of alternative or what might be called “Tiny Game” hunting. I read a recent reference (don’t ask me where) to such food as if it were part of the “gathering” part of Hunter/Gathering. This was used to imply that primal society was more vegetarian than carnivore. But as concerns our diet, it’s meat.

I try to replace the insects, worms and other invertebrates with shrimp and shellfish, because my persnickity-ness ain’t all that Primal 8-D

Ben
Ben
6 years 7 months ago

I started eating paleo two months ago and and have seen and felt great results. I eat a 4 oz piece of meat at every meal three times a day (fish, chicken, turkey, or beef). Is this too much meat in the long run? I am pretty lean and am lifting to gain lean muscle.

Brett
Brett
6 years 5 months ago
As I’m still trying to wrap my head around eating meat any day I want, I’ve always been taught to eat meat sparingly. Recently, I read “The Food Revolution” by John Robbins and there was some very convincing data on the downside of eating meat versus plant proteins. Also, what about the empiricial studies such as the Oxford-Cornell China Project or Dr Fuhrman author of “Eat to Live” and many others showing evidence that meat and dairy lead to high rates of cancer, heart disease and autoimmune disorders. I love the information and principles taught in Primal Nutrition and am… Read more »
Mark Sisson
6 years 5 months ago
Brett, the problem with having a blog that’s four years old and has thousands of posts is that much of what I’ve already written and explained in excruciating detail has been relegated to the archives. China Study is a joke, Robbins has always had a veg*n agenda (and no good science) and I just plain don’t agree with Fuhrman, Esselstyn, McDougall, Pritikin or Ornish. In fact, I don’t understand how they haven’t recanted everything they’ve ever said as the research continues to show that fat is king, meat is good and grains are terrible. Many PBers eat meat several times… Read more »
Brett
Brett
6 years 5 months ago

Thanks Mark! I appreciate the comments and reply. Just needed that additional confirmation and clarification. Grok on!

Jeremy McMinn
Jeremy McMinn
6 years 5 months ago

Mark

I’m slightly with Brett here until I research it myself in more detail, however I am leaning towards this way of life as it just makes more sense. There was always something not quite right with the Raw Food lifestyle and vegetarianism

I just stumbled across MDA a couple of days ago and thrown myself into PB (wonderful site by the way).

Fortunately I have seen the science behind the grains issue, having been to a seminar by a chiropractor Dr. James Chestnut http://www.thewellnesspractice.com/, and it really shifted the paradigm that I held about what was healthy and what wasn’t.

Alms
Alms
5 years 4 months ago

Research is nothing until it is proven long term. Japanese eat tons of rice and have done for thousands of years yet have the highest life expectancy. Explanation?

Michael
Michael
5 years 4 months ago

They don’t eat sugar. Show me one Japanese, who has eaten a ton of rice. Their servings are like 1/2 cup per meal. They eat a lot of vegetables and some meat. Asians are not eating huge meals like Europeans and Americans.

Michael
Michael
5 years 4 months ago

A friend once told me, that “the human being only needs a serving of meat the size of a golf ball per day.” That is probably true. Grok might have had to eat 100 golf balls per monthly serving. Who knows? Reminds me of bears, wolves and lions. They eat until they can’t hold anymore and they desert the kill. The jackles and vultures get the rest. So, if you kill a mammoth you eat until the remainder is rotten or you just cannot eat anymore.

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[…] self-defense mechanisms that can trigger auto-immune diseases and irritate the intestinal lining. Meat, on the other hand, comes with claws and teeth and legs (and sometimes poison) to dissuade […]

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[…] one would ever call the Primal Blueprint a protein-sparing plan, but you’re going to have to eat even more than before. Stuff yourself. I always say that body composition is 80% diet, and that goes for putting on mass […]

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6 years 2 months ago

[…] really did eat that much meat” I find myself saying pretty often to people. Check out an easy to read one from MDA. And here’s a recipe I often resort to when pressed for time.Preheat oven to 350 and […]

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[…] too different. It’s like with diet. Everyone does well with the basic building blocks, stuff like meat, fat, vegetables, fruit, and nuts, but the optimal ratios are going to differ for individuals based […]

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[…] Defense of Meat Eaters Part 1 In Defense of Meat Eaters Part 2 Did Grok Really Eat That Much Meat? Protein Amounts in Foods Ten Best and Worst Protein […]

Tim
Tim
5 years 7 months ago

I have nothing intellectual to add so here’s an ode to meat to the tune of “Beans, beans…”

Meat meat nutritional food
If you avoid it, you are screwed
To get a good steak, Grok would kill
So cook up some meat and eat your fill!

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