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December 03, 2013

Should You Be Eating High-Fat Dairy?

By Mark Sisson
300 Comments

DairyOne thing that sets the Primal way of eating apart from other ancestral health approaches is our acceptance of dairy fat. Obviously, those people who can’t tolerate dairy shouldn’t eat it, but in my experience a significant portion of the community can handle high-quality, full-fat dairy, especially butteryogurt, and cheese. We like these foods for many reasons. They’re delicious. They make vegetables more appealing and nutritious. They’re inherently nutritious themselves, containing fat-soluble vitamins and important minerals, while the potentially problematic components of dairy – the whey, casein, and lactose – are either absent or mitigated by fermentationFermented dairy is a good source of probiotics, too. All in all, dairy is worth including if you can do it.

The rest of the nutritional world seem to be catching up with us on this. Recent years have seen a rash of meta-analyses, epidemiological studies, and clinical trials that question the assumption that low-fat dairy is healthier than full-fat dairy. Even Harvard’s Walter Willett, that seed oil-loving silver fox with the voluminous mustache, has come out in tepid support of full-fat dairy. Official recommendations lag, as they always do, but it’s changing. Just check out some of the studies. They don’t just exonerate dairy fat. They increasingly and repeatedly find connections between dairy fat and improved health.

  • A recent study entitled “Milk in the diet: good or bad for vascular disease?” found that the evidence “indicates that increased consumption of milk does not result in increased CVD risk and may give some long-term benefits” including reduced blood pressure and body weight, and that the “SFA in dairy may be less of a risk factor than previously thought.”
  • In women, a recent study found that the effect of dairy on cardiovascular disease depends entirely on the type of dairy consumed. Cheese consumption was inversely associated with risk of heart attack, while butter used on bread increased the risk. Awesomely and unsurprisingly, butter used for cooking did not increase the risk.
  • According to another review of the influence of milk fat on CVD risk, the “majority of observational studies have failed to find an association between the intake of dairy products and increased risk of CVD, coronary heart disease, and stroke, regardless of milk fat levels.” While butter and other sources of milk fat may increase LDL-C “when substituted for carbohydrates or unsaturated fatty acids,” they also increase HDL and may even improve the HDL:total cholesterol ratio.
  • Another study found that neither low-fat dairy nor full-fat dairy were associated with cardiovascular disease. However, full-fat fermented dairy was protective against CVD.

Many of those studies are based on dietary recall, which is notoriously unreliable. Can you remember how much dairy fat you ate five years ago? Five months ago? Five days ago? It’s more accurate to look at how biomarkers of dairy fat consumption, specific fatty acids or nutrients unique to dairy (or at least uncommon in other foods) that signify dairy fat intake when they show up in tissue or blood, relate to health conditions:

  • In overweight teens, levels of the dairy-specific saturated fats pentadecanoic acid and heptadecanoic acid in the blood were associated with lower inflammatory markers, even after controlling for calcium, vitamin D, protein, and omega-3 intake (all dairy components that may influence health).
  • Higher levels of trans-palmitoleic acid (a dairy fat) were associated with lower insulin resistance, dyslipidemia, and diabetes risk.
  • Although higher circulating trans-palmitoleic acid meant higher LDL-C, it also meant lower triglycerides, improved blood pressure, and less diabetes in a cohort of white, black, Latino, and Chinese Americans. Circulating pentadecanoic acid was also linked to reduced cardiovascular disease in that same cohort. I’ll take the higher LDL-C if I get all the other stuff.
  • Dietary intake of menaquinones (vitamin K2), “which is highly determined by the intake of [full-fat] cheese,” was associated with a reduced risk of incident and fatal cancer.

Dairy fat contains over 400 of these fatty acid “species,” making it the most complex natural fat. Not all of those species have been studied – 400 is a tall order – but there is evidence that at least a couple of them exert beneficial effects:

Conjugated Linoleic Acid

You know CLA by now. It’s the “good trans-fat,” the one that causes feverish vegans to point and scream about dairy “having trans-fats!” until you calmly explain the difference between manmade trans-fats in partially hydrogenated vegetable oils and beneficial trans-fats produced in the rumens of cattle and sheep.

covered CLA a few years ago, focusing especially on the differences between supplemental CLA (often mostly trans-10, cis-12) and naturally occurring CLA (90% cis-9, trans-11), so I won’t go too much into it. Suffice it to say, supplemental CLA is a different beast altogether whose effects cannot be extrapolated out to dairy containing CLA. The dose is larger and the structure is different. That said, dairy naturally rich in cis-9, trans-11 CLA has been shown to be beneficial in trials. In a 2010 trial, pecorino romano (a raw sheep cheese high in CLA that I highly recommend) improved markers of inflammation and atherosclerosis in human subjects compared to a control cheese low in CLA.

Butyric Acid

Butyric acid is a short chain fatty acid produced in the guts of mammals by fermentation of fiber by gut bacteria. Since ruminants like cows are processing tons of fibrous plant matter, they make a lot of butyric acid which ends up in their dairy fat. Most research has focused on the benefits of endogenous production of butyric acid in the colon, but one human study suggests that oral butyric acid in the amounts we could expect to get from dairy fat can also have beneficial effects on our health.

However, it was an enteric-coated oral butyric acid supplement that helped 53% of subjects with “mild to moderate” Crohn’s disease go into remission and 16% have partial improvement, not a mouthful of butter. Enteric coatings allow supplements to make it into the colon whereas butter will be digested before making it. I suppose it’s possible that poor digestion could allow for some butter (and butyric acid) to make it down to the colon, but that’s not a desirable condition. The results of this study may not be applicable to butter consumption.

Milk Fat Globule Membrane

Dairy fat is encapsulated in a “milk fat globule membrane” that also includes various other bioactive compounds that seem to exert beneficial effects. Indeed, consumption of buttermilk, which is rich in MFGM, has been shown to reduce blood pressure in human subjects. Another study showed reductions in cholesterol, especially triglycerides, with buttermilk consumption.

What about low-fat dairy?

Low-fat dairy doesn’t seem to help with blood pressure or adiposity. It either has no effect on or increases a certain marker of inflammation, while eating butter, cream, or cheese has either a beneficial or no effect on inflammation. And although milk is often implicated in cancer, that’s only true for low-fat and skim milk; full-fat milk appears to be protective.

For all the potential benefits of these dairy-specific fatty acid species, I’m hesitant to elevate any one of them. Dairy is a whole food, and it’s likely the entire package that’s responsible for the effects. Plus, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to disentangle the fatty acid components from the other nutrients in dairy. CLA comes with calcium comes with milk fat globule membranes come with vitamin K2 comes with potassium comes with protein, and so on. And even if we could isolate the effects of various dairy nutrients and study them, that goes out the window we eat the stuff. When we bite down on a slab of aged gouda or toss a pat of grass-fed butter over some steamed broccoli or quaff a flagon of kefir, the myriad components of dairy are mingling in our mouths and our guts and being incorporated into and used by our tissues. We can’t disentangle dairy nutrients in the real world. Why would we want to? If we do, we end up with CLA supplements that don’t work quite as well as grass-fed dairy. Just eat the dairy. Studies – and millennia of tradition across dozens of cultures – support this practice.

Whatever’s doing it, something in the full-fat dairy is improving our health over and above low-fat dairy – and that’s what matters most. Choose your fancy. Raw milk? Drink it if you got and want it. Aged sheep cheese? Enjoy. Yogurt? Do it. They all seem to be associated with good health, protection from CVD and diabetes and obesity. Since the healthy user effect doesn’t really apply to full-fat dairy (since “everyone knows” full-fat dairy is bad for you), I’m cautiously optimistic that it’s actually exerting beneficial effects on people who eat it.

What does this mean in the big picture? Is full-fat dairy unabashedly Primal? If you’re tolerant of it, then yes, I suppose it is.

In a future post, I’ll explain how you can figure out if you’re dairy intolerant.

Thanks for reading, everyone. Take care and be sure to leave a comment!

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300 Comments on "Should You Be Eating High-Fat Dairy?"

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Rob
Rob
2 years 9 months ago

I love having dairy in my diet, It helps me with getting some extra protein!

BARBBF
BARBBF
2 years 9 months ago

Dr. Spock of the Baby and Childcare books..said his greatest regret is that he recommended cows milk for children. He like others realized later in life that COWS MILK IS FOR BABY CALVES…AND NOT FOR HUMANS. Anyway..most persons of African descent are lactose intolerant..and the last thing they should be drinking is milk.

Jac
Jac
2 years 9 months ago

Well, that’s a silly reason not to consume dairy… nothing we eat was intended for us to eat. The plants that produced the vegetables we chow down on certainly didn’t think ‘hmm, I better produce a bumper crop so I can feed all these humans’. The ethics of eating dairy should be argued without reference to whether cow milk was meant for us.

PapaHotel
PapaHotel
2 years 9 months ago

“nothing we eat was intended for us to eat.”

Except for fruits, (and parasites).

Matt
2 years 9 months ago

Spot on! I have to agree that it’s a silly reason to not consume dairy. It’s about time dairy gets some love from the Paleo community seeing as most people I”ve come across who are Paleo are caucasion and of European descent which (generally speaking) have no problem digesting milk. If you can’t digest it, that’s fine. I have no plans on eliminating dairy any time soon.

Daniel
2 years 9 months ago

Go read about the lactase persistence allele it will answer all your questions about dairty.

Jane P
Jane P
2 years 9 months ago

Don’t tell the Maasai that. Cows blood mixed with milk is a staple of their diet.

Fred Timm
Fred Timm
2 years 9 months ago

Right on!

Irene Goodlow
2 years 9 months ago

I agree. I am from Kenya and the Maasai have existed on this diet for years and years and are the healthiest people l know of.

Gayle
Gayle
2 years 9 months ago

Tell it to the Masai.

Lya
Lya
2 years 9 months ago

Cow’s milk contains lactase as well as lactose. In raw milk, the lactase ‘consumes” the lactose….your body doesnt’ have to. When milk is pasturised the lactase is destroyed leaving the lactose….your body is not designed to deal with it, that’s why a lot of people who consume processed dairy are lactose intolerant. Again, if you consume the whole food, you will be better off because the pasturisation propably kills off a lot more nutrients.

Kat
Kat
2 years 9 months ago

Lactase is NOT in milk… It’s the bacteria in raw milk which ferment the lactose…

Lactase is only produced in the human body… Biggest furfie about raw milk is the lactase

Laura
Laura
2 years 9 months ago

Really??? What about those magnificent Masai???

Anders Emil
Anders Emil
2 years 9 months ago

“COWS MILK IS FOR BABY CALVES…AND NOT FOR HUMANS.”

Really… Then what are eggs for??? You don’t eat eggs?

pam
pam
2 years 9 months ago

XD,

the moment i read the title, i just knew someone is going to mention “baby cows”

dont’ think i can ever give up dairy because

. butter & ghee

. Beemser Vlaaskas (cheese)

. morning black tea + 1 T HWC

. creme Fraiche! creme Fraiche! XD

cheers,

ps. actually, milk & fruits are the only items in nature that are grown to be consumed.

Leo
Leo
2 years 5 months ago

Interesting since Weston Price mentions the Maasai drank raw milk as a constant part of their diet.

victor
victor
2 years 5 months ago

So is the beef from a cow also bad for us and human flesh the only acceptable meat to consume?

John Macgregor
John Macgregor
5 months 2 days ago

I’m sure you’ve been asked this before:

How does anything dairy fit into a paleo diet? We are eaters of meat, vegetables, fibrous fruits and nuts. We drink water.

(I’m just reading de Vany’s book. He appears to be opposed to dairy, tho has an “occasional” serve of yogurt for a treat.)

Joanna
2 years 9 months ago

Love this post! High-fat dairy is awesome!

Rand
Rand
2 years 9 months ago

Excellent post and reassuring for this cheese-a-vore. I do wonder, though, why dairy is often implicated in weight gain (or weight loss stalls). Is it simply a matter of a calorically dense food that is easy to overeat? Or is there something else going on?

SeattleSlim
SeattleSlim
2 years 9 months ago

Maybe because dairy is almost always paired with something else? Cheese and crackers. Bread and butter. Pizza. Sugary lattes.

Allison
Allison
2 years 9 months ago

This is why I sometimes prefer my butter unaccompanied. A slice of cheese is normal, so why not a slice of butter? 😉

2Rae
2Rae
2 years 9 months ago

Allison, that is just what I did on our anniversary dinner in June. They served warm (smelled wonderful) bread with cold butter. Well, the best thing about the bread was the butter so I just ate the butter and smelled the bread. Worked for me. Sometimes I’ll have a little bit as a snack as I’m fixing dinner. Everything is better with butter!

Danielle Thalman
Danielle Thalman
2 years 9 months ago

Like

Paleo Bon Rurgundy
2 years 9 months ago

Taking your idea one step further, a slice of cheese on a slice of butter.

Lisa
Lisa
2 years 9 months ago

My kids love their butter unaccompanied also. At first I was reluctant but then decided why not! Thanks for letting me know we aren’t alone. 🙂

OnTheBayou
OnTheBayou
2 years 9 months ago

When growing up in Brazil almost 90 years ago, my mother was asked what she wanted for her birthday. She chose “A kilo of butter that I don’t have to share.” She got it.

Melissa
Melissa
2 years 9 months ago

Oh good! I’m not so weird after all! I love to eat a pat of butter now and then.

Anna
Anna
2 years 9 months ago

Yes. I have also buttered my cheese before.

Bill C
Bill C
2 years 9 months ago

Butter on cheese… why didn’t I think of that? They are both wonderful by themselves, and I bet they will compliment each other.

Cindy
2 years 9 months ago

YES! Buttered Cheese. I’m going to have to try that. My co-workers think I’m nuts when I tell them I have a spoonful of that grass-fed butter when I need a snack.

KGirl
KGirl
2 years 1 month ago

Your comment made me laugh because my 3-year-old son and so many other young children are constantly doing this exact same thing! He’s never seen anyone else do it, he has never been encouraged to do it, yet he and so many other tiny humans do it seemingly instinctively — I think that says something! And this is a kid who would not drink milk (but would happily gobble down any cheese or yogurt).

Anyway, I love fermented dairy and feel like I can’t get in enough calories without it so this post makes me HAPPY!

Erin
Erin
2 years 9 months ago

Doesn’t matter whether it’s full fat or not, dairy is insulinemic.

greensleeves
greensleeves
2 years 9 months ago
“dairy is insulinemic” Indeed it is – as is also fish, beef & chicken. In fact if we look at the Insulin Index, beef is 51 ± 16 on the insulin scale; fish is worse, at 59 ± 18. Cheese is a mere 45 ± 13. Eggs much better at 45 ± 13. Why do the dairy-bashers never cite the figures for meat? Why don’t you tell the whole story? So from an evidence-based science perspective, based on the insulin index, you should absolutely become a vegan if your main concern is insulin level. Maybe permit yourself to live on… Read more »
Erin
Erin
2 years 9 months ago

I dare you to gurgle in a toilet bowl because that’s what you sound like. I love full fat dairy. I consume in moderation though because it often bloats me and gives me pimples. And Robb Wolf did all the research for me. Feel free to visit his site.

Whatever!!!!!
Whatever!!!!!
2 years 9 months ago

I think Erin needs to be toilet trained!

BARBBF
BARBBF
2 years 9 months ago

NotMilk.com website provides educational resources for consumers …
http://www.naturalnews.com/002712_Robert_Cohen_cows_milk.html?

by Mike Adams

Dec 5, 2004 – NotMilk.com website provides educational resources for consumers wanting to learn about the health dangers of dairy products, explains …

penny
penny
2 years 9 months ago

I wouldn’t touch pasturized dairy…it’s dead.. even if it’s organic. Only raw full fat dairy for me. Raw butter, raw cheese, raw homemade kefir…a pint a day for probiotics… raw home made Greek yogurt. ..I live on it. I’m so blessed to be able to get it. Bring on the fat!

Piper A R
Piper A R
2 years 9 months ago

I can’t tell if Erin’s comment means that dairy is bad because it is insulinemic, because it causes bloating and pimples, or because Robb Wolf said so.

OnTheBayou
OnTheBayou
2 years 9 months ago

erin, only the proteins whey and casein are insulinemic. The fat isn’t. Therefore cream and butter are non-insulinemic.

Da Big Shoe
Da Big Shoe
2 years 9 months ago

Thanks for a great idea penny. I will test your theory tomorrow morning and have a misto made with heavy cream and measure my blood sugar before and an half hour later (…w/understanding that blood sugar is not insulin, but has an effect on it).

Eva
Eva
2 years 9 months ago
There are so many factors that I would not even want to lump ‘full fat diary’ all into one category. For instance, I tried out the much lauded greek yogurt a few months ago, and I liked it fairly well and was eating it for breakfast for a while until I figured out that every day I ate it, I got nasty acne that would not start to heal until I went 24 hours without the yogurt. I had carefully chosen the healthiest yogurt with nothing but milk and cultures and it was giving me pustules, ew! I experimented a… Read more »
Sierra
Sierra
2 years 9 months ago

Eva, I’m not saying that you should keep trying dairy if you know it doesn’t work for you, but here’s a thought: many people associate acneic breakouts as a natural detox pathway. Could it be that the full-fat dairy, choc full of natural glutathione precursors, is actually so nourishing for the liver that our detox process starts up, and those blemishes are a result of toxins leaving the body? Just hypothesizing.

Erin
Erin
2 years 9 months ago

It is unbelievable all the negative connotations of insulin. Although most on this site are probably looking to lose weight, I bet ya there are a handful who wish they were bigger. Insulin is essential for muscle growth too.

Dan
Dan
2 years 9 months ago

Thank you! God made the stuff. Can’t “disentangle that”.

leida
leida
2 years 9 months ago
We are starting to use full-fat dairy. Non-homogenized organic is the best dairy we can get here (raw is illegal), but I can’t always buy it. I don’t like milk per se, just make quark from it (with kefir grains). The local company that supplies non-h organic milk recently started a line of double cream (52%) and I love a dub of it in my coffee. The problem is they sell it in 1 cup container. So I froze it because it will take me a loooong time to get through one cup – will it be Okay? There is… Read more »
Nocona
Nocona
2 years 9 months ago

Many states where raw milk is illegal get around that by selling Herdshares. I do this in Oregon. I make my own kefir and yogurt out of the raw milk. The cream and butter is also to die for. The Weston Price Foundation knows the benefits of raw milk and has been promoting it since the 1930’s.

leida
leida
2 years 9 months ago

Cowshare is not available in AB yet. It is in BC, but that means frozen milk. I kindda think local non-homogenized >> frozen, not local.

Ellen
Ellen
2 years 9 months ago
I use raw dairy (goats milk and cows milk) which is legal in FL only for pet food purposes. (My dog loves raw goat milk as much as we do!!) RealMilk.com may have a solution for you if you really want to try it. Because we don’t use a lot of it, I freeze it immediately in smaller sterilized glass canning jars and just thaw what we need. It’s fine. From what I understand some of the organic milk is pasteurized at an even higher temperature than other pasteurized milk. My daughter loves Liberte yogurt too. It’s delicious we’ve only… Read more »
leida
leida
2 years 9 months ago

Yeah, I can’t stand flavored yogurts any more. Just a taste change!

Karen
Karen
2 years 9 months ago

Yep, was going to suggest looking for low-temp pasteurized. Natural By Nature is one brand, and Organic Valley sells both (though unfortunately the ultra pasteurized is much easier to find). It’s not raw, but the low temp is at least better. I know people who can handle it but not ultra pasteurized (and don’t get me started on the so heated it’s shelf stable kind, ugh).

Cloudy
Cloudy
2 years 9 months ago

Hi Leida,

Try freezing the cream in ice-cube trays… you can even get small ones in which one cube will be about enough for one coffee.

As you probably know, it’s not as good as fresh from frozen, but it does the trick.

We’ve frozen and thawed cheddar and brie too and it’s fine if thawed slowly and allowed to thaw to room temp.

leida
leida
2 years 9 months ago

I will give it a try. Have a history of freezing tomato paste and concentrated orange juice and broth in i-c trays….

Katie
2 years 9 months ago

When you have extra heavy or double cream, make butter! It’s very easy – just run it through your food processor or mini chopper until it turns into a big ball of butter and the whey starts spurting out.

Jay Gloab
Jay Gloab
2 years 9 months ago

High-fat dairy keeps a long time in the fridge. But I’m surprised you don’t go through it faster ;my wife and I go through about a quart of heavy cream a week just in our coffee.

Northern Mermaid
Northern Mermaid
2 years 9 months ago
52%?! Yum yum! The organic cream available to us in our part of Ontario is 10% (half and half) and 35%, in 2-cup cartons. That is usually too much for us to get through before the best before date, so I freeze it in ice cube trays. When it’s frozen, I take the trays out and leave them on the counter for 5 minutes or so, and then I pop the cream cubes into labelled bags and bung them back in the freezer. When I thaw them again, they are fine, though they do need to be stirred to smooth… Read more »
Groktimus Primal
2 years 9 months ago

Oh Cheez Whiz…

Captain Competition
2 years 9 months ago

How does Egg Nog fit in, its certainly full-fat dairy right?

Steve Bzomowski
2 years 9 months ago

Was wondering about this as I ate my bowl of full-fat Greek yoghurt (Fage) this morning (mixed with wild blueberries). Day 3 of going whole hog Primal.

Graham
Graham
2 years 9 months ago

As much as it broke my heart, I had to quit the Fage due to the fact that it isn’t organic—following some info from Paul Chek, I won’t touch conventional dairy again—scary stuff. I really love full fat Fage, too.

Organic Bulgarian Yogurt is comparable in price and very tangy and delicious though…

Samantha
Samantha
2 years 9 months ago

What’s wrong with Fage? Is it the product, or something in the production? If you can point me to more info on that topic, that’d be great. Thanks.

Graham
Graham
2 years 9 months ago

It comes from conventionally raised animals. It’s “all natural,” not organic. It’s also the perfect texture and flavor, but c’est la vie….

I’m sure Google can point you to more info on the topic…that’s what it does.

Samantha
Samantha
2 years 9 months ago

Ok, thanks I’ll search it out, thanks for letting me know what Google does. You seemed to have done some research and so I thought you’d have more information to volunteer. Sorry to bother you.

Jess
Jess
2 years 9 months ago

Do you think dairy is demonized in the paleo community only because it is technically a processed food?

Myra
Myra
2 years 9 months ago

Some of us have no tolerance for it. Aside from the well known GI issues, I find that it makes my sinuses very congested, to the point where a bite will give me a headache for 2-3 days and more will congest me to the point of needing medical attention. My allergist also warned me that it could potentially progress to the point of anaphylaxis at any time.

Nancy
Nancy
2 years 9 months ago

I can’t do dairy either. Even a small amount will give me a sore throat and major congestion. Back in the days when I didn’t realize this I had major bouts with sinus infections and bronchitis. I’ve experimented and even goat and sheep dairy bothers me. Luckily I’m ok with ghee.

suzanne
suzanne
2 years 9 months ago

curious if fermented whole milk would do the same. my face would break out after having dairy, but when i eat kefir or yogurt (raw milk, homemade) it doesn’t.

Wenchypoo
Wenchypoo
2 years 9 months ago

It’s Benadryl to the rescue for me, but LT use of antihistamines isn’t good, so i just pass on the dairy.

Tee Dee
Tee Dee
2 years 9 months ago

You’re right about long-term use of antihistamines being bad for us; plus, I found it gives me Restless Leg Syndrome, especially if I try to use it at night…

Madeleine
2 years 9 months ago

Me too but nowhere near as severe as you. I can handle butter and small amounts of cream. But yeah, get the coated throat feeling and some bad stomach action after eating too much. I haven’t tried raw dairy, I’ve excluded dairy from my life for so long now that I don’t miss it.
I’ve not been properly assessed, however I’m looking forward to Mark’s upcoming intolerance post.

Wenona
Wenona
2 years 9 months ago
A lot of these symptoms are caused by a certain protein in the milk, most likely. As someone else mentioned higher up in the thread, most American dairy cows produce a certain type of protein in the milk, I keep getting the good one confused with the bad. There’s A1 and A2. It’s all explained in the book Devil in the Milk. I don’t drink milk anymore, used to love it. I still eat butter, ice cream, cheese, cream cheese though. Right before I stopped drinking milk, I noticed a benign tonsillar mass. Decided to stop drinking milk and it… Read more »
Erin
Erin
2 years 9 months ago

It gives me pimples

Pimples
Pimples
2 years 9 months ago

Have you tried a paper bag!!!

Mantonat
Mantonat
2 years 9 months ago

I think some paleo folks dislike dairy for the same reason they dislike grains: they are foods that were introduced into the human diet relatively recently, so we may not have evolved to properly digest and metabolize it. That said, I have no problem with it – I eat a fair amount of full-fat plain yogurt, aged cheeses, and butter. I don’t really like drinking milk, but a do enjoy heavy cream in my coffee.

Wenchypoo
Wenchypoo
2 years 9 months ago

It’s the lactose that scares us. Dr. Volek says there are TONS of sugar in a glass of milk.

Lucia
Lucia
2 years 9 months ago

if you eat your dairy fermented, the lactose is largely gobbled up by the bacteria

Janknitz
Janknitz
2 years 9 months ago

Ummm, I’m pretty sure we’re all able to metabolize dairy at first–mother’s milk! So the argument that we didn’t “evolve” to process dairy is a little silly.

Some of us lose the ability to metabolize dairy after weaning. Others do not.

Anthony
Anthony
2 years 9 months ago

There is a huge difference between Milk from your mother (same species) versus the milk from another animal. It really is not a silly argument at all. You are just missing the point.

tkm
tkm
2 years 9 months ago

I think it goes without saying that Mantonat is referring to ADULT humans having evolved the ability to digest milk, past infancy. You are being silly by overlooking the obvious.

Kay
Kay
2 years 9 months ago

Yes we can (usually) drink our mother’s milk the problem is we are not made to drink the milk of other mammals so therefore we are unable to process it correctly.

Mantonat
Mantonat
2 years 9 months ago

Isn’t all milk mother’s milk? That cow at the dairy farm is probably some calf’s mom! 😉

melanie
melanie
2 years 3 months ago

So you drink human breastmilk?

Josh
Josh
2 years 9 months ago
I think dairy is an important food group that should be consumed if your body allows it. Personally, I find if I do not consume dairy I do not feel as strong or healthy. That said, I consume dairy in the form of whole milk kefir (with cream added sometimes), heavy cream in my coffee, lots of butter, and lots of cheese. An interesting side note, I used to drink a lot of skim milk and I had pizza face acne. I cut our dairy and my acne cleared over the course of a few months (I sadly went through… Read more »
Emelee
Emelee
2 years 9 months ago
Soooo glad to see here what I always felt was true. I eat kind of a lot of dairy since I’m very low carb, and I have a hard time getting enough fat otherwise. I am very fortunate to live where I can get raw CREAM from a farm. It’s unbelievable– the consistency of mayonnaise. (jealousy bells ringing??) I think of it as a vitamin pill. I don’t drink milk, but stick to raw cheeses (great sources for the beautiful artisan ones here, too) and the cream, which I make butter from when I can get enough. (Not always available… Read more »
Heather
Heather
2 years 9 months ago

We get that kind of cream once in a while – it’s so thick you can barely pour it!

Kristine
Kristine
2 years 9 months ago

Right now I have greek gods whole fat plain and it is the tastiest greek yogurt I have had! It’s like desert!

Beccolina
Beccolina
2 years 9 months ago

Yes! I love their yogurt. A bit of that with some pumpkin seeds and cinnamon is one of my favorite snacks. And here, at least, they’re more affordable than most of the fat-free Greek yogurts.

Danielle Thalman
Danielle Thalman
2 years 9 months ago

I AM jealous. Wanna do a cultural exchange? I’m in Oregon…

Danielle Thalman
Danielle Thalman
2 years 9 months ago

That was a response to Emelee btw

Danielle Thalman
Danielle Thalman
2 years 9 months ago

Or Heather

LynnA
LynnA
2 years 9 months ago

I love Greek Gods yogurt and was very happy when one of our local stores started carrying it. I had it the first time earlier this year when we visited a friend in Tucson AZ.

suzanne
suzanne
2 years 9 months ago

I eat alot of raw milk kefir. My HDL just came in at 94, but my triglycerides are 108 and LDL 111. total cholesterol is 225. all numbers are up since i started guzzling kefir. not sure if this is a bad thing??

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[…] Daily Apple / Posted on: January 01, 1970Mark’s Daily Apple – One thing that sets the Primal way of eating apart from other ancestral health approaches […]

Alicia
Alicia
2 years 9 months ago

What do you think about A1 versus A2 milk?

Tom
Tom
2 years 9 months ago
Mark what are your personal favorite dairy products? Cheeses in particular? I have a grocer with a selection of cheeses that i’ve yet to sample 80% of, and I’m always looking for good recommendations! I bought some humboldt fog goat cheese and it was delicious, but the texture was strange and a little soft for me, so i might buy it again but not very often. Beemster goat gouda is one that I cannot avoid, and I have to keep some parmigiano reggiano on hand. Another I tried and loved recently was an alpine style cheese from vermont called spring… Read more »
Lisa
Lisa
2 years 9 months ago
Personally I love the Beemster XO, with its crunch flavor crystals sprinkled throughout the wedge. Beemster Grasskaas is produced in late spring/early summer with the milk from the cows that gorged themselves with new spring grasses. Locatelli is a delicious pecorino romano that my kids and I eat cubed. For another sheep cheese, try the Manchego, but get it aged more than four months; it’s more caramely tasting with more age. I’m not too sure how primal mozzarella is, but Sam’s carries a brand that is either packaged as two balls or one log, and it’s full fat. When it’s… Read more »
Tee Dee
Tee Dee
2 years 9 months ago

Oh my goodness, Lisa, you’ve got me positively drooling for some new varieties of cheese! Thanks! 🙂

John
John
2 years 9 months ago
I’m glad you addressed this because I’ve been curious about my intake. I really feel fine with most dairy in certain quantities (along with some other technically non-Primal foods). I use heavy cream for coffee and tea. Butter for cooking. The occasional kefir or yogurt. And definitely a lot of cheese (sharp provolone, mmmmmm!! I’m half Sicilian). I tried drinking whole milk for a few weeks over this past summer. It had been YEARS since I had had milk in a glass. I stopped because it just started to weird me out, how young mammals stop drinking milk, but I… Read more »
Alexander
Alexander
2 years 9 months ago

I get minor joint pain from some forms of dairy. It’s very tolerable but I notice it. Does anyone know if that means it isn’t being absorbed by my body? Do lactose intolerant people get the benefits of dairy despite the pain?

Wenona
Wenona
2 years 9 months ago

It could be your immune system is triggered by the milk protein and confuses your joints with them, attacking them. I’ve heard about this in online podcasts. I’m sorry I can’t remember the remedy but maybe with some research you could find it. It can also be linked to gluten sensitivity, if you have it then your body is more likely to attack the proteins in milk and your joints.

Bryan
Bryan
2 years 9 months ago

Butter is really the only source of dairy fat that I get right now. Wisconsin has a bill on the floor right now that will legalize raw milk sales direct to the consumer. I will introduce some milk into my diet if I can legally buy it direct from the farmer…

http://www.jsonline.com/business/wisconsin-bill-would-legalize-raw-milk-with-caveats-b99139658z1-231516791.html

I’ve also been able to find a locally made full fat, grass fed seasonal cheese in local stores too.

hikergirl11
hikergirl11
2 years 9 months ago

Here in northern Canada, we can only get organic full fat pasteurized dairy products. I would really like to know if there is any benefit to eating them when they are all pasteurized? Or are the benefits completely mitigated by the pasteurization process…I realize it is better to have raw…just not available here….

Catherine
Catherine
2 years 9 months ago

Yup, still worth it. The pasteurization process destroys a couple of nutrients that are heat sensitive, but it leaves many perfectly fine. Mark has written this in past articles on dairy/milk, so you can look it up for more info on specifics.

Plus, cheese still has the nutrients listed in this article, and many cheeses aren’t made with raw milk, so other than new nutrients/chemicals introduced via the fermentation process, pasteurized milk will have the same/similar ones.

Bobert
Bobert
2 years 9 months ago

1 major problem is that it is really easy to overeat dairy.

OctoberAmy
OctoberAmy
6 months 13 days ago
Yes Bobert, I think you’ve hit on the only problem I see with dairy (as long as you’re lactose tolerant). Cheese, butter and cream are concentrated fat while milk is liquid (concentrated) calories. Similar to the way concentrated sugar was not found in nature (fruit came with fiber and honey came with bees to scare you away), neither concentrated fat or concentrated liquid calories were available to our hunter-gatherer ancestors (pre herding.) The fat they got came mixed in with their meat (that they had to chase and kill), or in their nuts/avocados/olives, etc. The calories came from things they… Read more »
SeattleSlim
SeattleSlim
2 years 9 months ago

Does anyone have a brand of butter to recommend? (I typically shop at Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods.) My sinuses can’t handle milk or yogurt, but butter seems to be okay and I’d like to use more of it on my veggies.

Ann
Ann
2 years 9 months ago

Trader Joe’s in Seattle has a good price on Kerrygold Irish Butter. It’s not organic but grass-fed.

Rene Rushing
Rene Rushing
2 years 9 months ago

I concur -Kerry Gold from Trader Joe’s (in SoCal) -reasonably priced and delicious!

Rene Rushing
Rene Rushing
2 years 9 months ago

On the subject of Trader Joe’s and dairy -I just tried their “spotlight ” cheese called Barely Buzzed …rubbed in ground espresso and lavender …yum.

Erin
Erin
2 years 9 months ago

Organic Valley has a pasture butter. That is what I use.

Kate
Kate
2 years 9 months ago

Costco carries Kerrygold … very reasonably priced.

Wenona
Wenona
2 years 9 months ago

you might check US Wellness Meats online, they sell butter, cheese, as well as chicken, beef, seafood

Kurt B.
2 years 9 months ago

Full-fat cottage cheese is part of my breakfast routine. Great protein source and keeps me feeling full all through lunch. I have definitely noticed that my body handles full-fat cheese and cottage cheese better than my old habit of skim milk and lowfat -insert dairy product here-.

Rene Rushing
Rene Rushing
2 years 9 months ago

One of my favorite quick breakfasts is just full fat cottage cheese and sliced tomatoes …

Tom
Tom
2 years 9 months ago

I’ve recently incorporated full-fat sour cream into my diet. Great with avocado, cabbage and all kinds of good things.

Diane
Diane
2 years 9 months ago
I have tried to make my own yogurt from full-fat milk and the cream just turned to oil when I heated the milk and then went bad during the fermentation process. I don’t have this problem with low-fat milk. As for cottage cheese, I just like the taste of low-fat better so that’s what I buy. I’ve been putting a lot of sour cream in things lately. It seems to make everything taste better. I suppose I could add it to my cottage cheese, but that seems unnecessary. Unless you are getting truly natural milk, all milk has been processed… Read more »
Liz
Liz
2 years 9 months ago

Try mixing the cream into the milk or heating it more slowly/gently ? I make yogurt from full fat milk + cream and I’ve never had that problem.

Wenchypoo
Wenchypoo
2 years 9 months ago
A couple of decades ago, we were stationed over in Italy, and one of the first things we did was visit an open-air farmer’s market. We bought bread, cheese (back when we could eat it), salami, and a knife, and made our own little picnic off to one corner of the grounds. We know now that the cheese we got was Pecorino Romano–DEFINITELY NOT the kind you want to make sandwiches with! We didn’t know that at the time. It was very twangy (sharp-tasting) and hard to cut. Now we know this is GRATING cheese and not slicing cheese.
John
John
2 years 9 months ago

I love raw cheese ..I buy it a the farmer’s market along with heavy cream and water buffalo yougurt (the best!).

Florin B.
Florin B.
2 years 9 months ago

I was wandering if you guys use to eat any form of french cheese?

What do you think of it?

allison
allison
2 years 9 months ago

Definitely Brie. camembert is too pungent for my liking. I think a lot of the French cheeses are trademarked and can only be made in that location under specific conditions, eg. grass fed. I know some sheeps cheeses are like that.

Ophelie
Ophelie
2 years 9 months ago
I’m French, and I actually think the real Brie (made from raw milk in the region of the Brie) has a stronger taste than real Camembert. A lot of the cheeses you find in France are “AOC”, meaning they have to be made in a specific place, under certain conditions (use of raw milk, milk from a specific type of cow, like the Abondanve type for Beaufort cheese, what the cow was fed, for example). But depending on the cheese, not all these conditions have to be met : for some, the use of raw milk is not an obligation… Read more »
Mantonat
Mantonat
2 years 9 months ago

Mimolette, Bucheron, tomme de Savoie, Brie, Camembert … so many fantastic French cheeses!

glorth2
glorth2
2 years 9 months ago

Raw, grass-fed milk up in this! Legal in PA! 🙂

Adam
2 years 9 months ago

PA for the win, indeed! Lots of raw, grass-fed milk from an abundance of farms. But of course, with the availability of raw milk come the raids that happen every year or so, always making their way to the news headlines.

Brad
Brad
2 years 9 months ago
We are organic dairy farmers. Jersey milk from cows on grass has always been a large part of our diet. We raised our kids on Weston Price’s principles and my kids and I have always been exceptionally healthy. We came to MDA because of my wife who has had serious digestive problems. We went primal a year ago and all of us benefited (Thank you very much!). But my wife is still struggling. She has now eliminated nightshades and brassicas. Interestingly, raw dairy is one of the few foods that is always good to her. Even more interesting is that… Read more »
lori
lori
2 years 9 months ago

The same is true for me. I cannot tolerate regular non-organic milk, but raw milk is great! I buy my milk from Organic Pastures in CA. I do ok with Organic Valley brand full fat milk (their eggnog is amazing). Mostly I use Organic Valley for cooking because of the high cost of raw.

Ara
Ara
2 years 9 months ago

+1 on the Organic Valley full-fat egg nog! It’s luxuriously thick, rich, and delicious! A nice treat during the holidays even if not primal due to sugar content.

Mimulus
Mimulus
2 years 9 months ago
I followed Weston Price/Nourishing Traditions for three years and I can tell you, at least for me, my body did not like raw dairy anymore than pasturized. My tastebuds adored it (raw milk cheese, creme fraiche, etc. yum!) but I just gained weight and had a constant dripping nose. Once I cut out all dairy I lost weight easily and my asthma.congestion cleared up. It is interesting that, personally, fat of any sort does not leave me feeling sated or full, so even really rich butter or cream left me wanting more, not feeling very satsfied. SO I was consuming… Read more »
Lisa
Lisa
2 years 9 months ago

Can you discuss the possible relation between dairy products and metabolic bone disease? As you know, the USA consumes more dairy products than any in the world, and yet have the highest incidence of Osteoarthritis. The causes could be multi-layered, but I’m hoping you will address it in relation to the Primal Blueprint you suscribe to and recommend.

Nocona
Nocona
2 years 9 months ago

Crap milk products from sick cows and also being ultra-pasteurized and homongenized…get Raw Milk and read some Weston Price. I wouldn’t even call the stuff they sell in grocery stores, dairy! I’d call it poison, just like CAFO meat.

Joan
Joan
2 years 9 months ago

From what I’ve read the reason people get osteoporosis is because their acid and alkaline are unbalanced. Your body is always trying to be just a little bit alkaline. If you eat too many acid foods, your body can’t get enough alkaline from food it takes it from your bones.
Alkaline foods are mostly fruits and veggies, which most people don’t eat enough of. Acid foods are proteins and processed food. A balance of 2 X the amount of alkaline over acid is best.

Mike
2 years 9 months ago

Joan, there are hundreds of reasons why people get osteoporosis.

Acid/Alkaline theory is much more complex than what conventional wisdom proclaims.

In terms of body function, no food is inherently acidic or alkaline. Alkalinity or acidity in the body is determined by the metabolic predisposition of the person and the internal environment of the body.

Thus, in one person fruits are alkaline-forming and in an other person acid-forming.

The same is valid for protein or any food.

Leagree
Leagree
2 years 9 months ago

The relationship is related to the protein content of dairy products. High protein without carbs causes the body to pull out calcium. This manifests as osteoarthritis and bone deformation.

Kristi Horine
Kristi Horine
2 years 9 months ago

I can technically tolerate dairy but it leads to some really annoying acne. I just recently tried to reintroduce some yogurt and cheese and after six weeks my skin is acting up again. But I just realized that I’ve gotten sick a few times which is very unusual. Maybe I’m even less tolerate than I realized? Time to cut it out again I guess. So sad.

Lisa
Lisa
2 years 9 months ago

sorry I meant to say Osteoporosis…

Mark
Mark
2 years 9 months ago

Lisa, there is a wealth of knowledge already on this site. You likely will not get a personal response from Mark Sisson. For instance, search the site for “osteoporosis,” and there are several postings that reference it.

Lauryn
Lauryn
2 years 9 months ago
I’m fairly certain I would not survive without my daily serving of raw, full-fat goat’s (or cow when I can’t get goat) milk (yes, I am being hyperbolic). Seriously, though … I have pretty low body fat and cannot imagine getting the protein I need without drinking my milk-two egg-banana-cocoa-coconut manna shake every morning. It is a hearty breakfast that takes me sometimes clear until dinner. I have so many other dietary restrictions (can’t even eat sweet potatoes and winter squash), that I’m very grateful for being able to consume dairy. And I too have wondered whether people who can’t… Read more »
Anna
Anna
2 years 9 months ago

Dairy makes my life much easier, as I have lost the ability to metabolize many other enjoyable foods and need to eat something.

The old argument that no other animals consume the milk of other animals – isn’t that also because they aren’t able to milk an animal? Given the ability, I’m sure many would, as it appears to be quite a good source of nutrients.

Tosca
2 years 9 months ago

Post workout, you want inflammation to be high, because the higher the inflammation, the stronger the recovery (I learned this from you, Mark). Low-fat dairy = inflammation and insulin spike, and protein. So non-fat greek yogurt post workout = best PWO snack ever?

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[…] One thing that sets the Primal way of eating apart from other ancestral health approaches is our acceptance of dairy fat. Obviously, those people who can’t tolerate dairy shouldn’t eat it, but in my experience a significant portion of the community can handle high-quality, full-fat dairy, especially butter, yogurt, and cheese. We like these foods for many reasons. […] Mark’s Daily Apple […]

Carrie Spencer
Carrie Spencer
2 years 9 months ago

Everyday I wake up hoping that my body can handle dairy. Unfortunately dairy acts like a poison for me. But my husband could eat it all day and feel great! Oh well:(

Michelle
Michelle
2 years 9 months ago

I’m with you! Every few months I give it a try again but with no success! I can tolerate some butter but everything else gives me migraines, sinus pain, mucus problems, stomach aches and I get moody! Very strange!

Wenona
Wenona
2 years 9 months ago
Carrie and Michelle, have you tried raw and/or been sure that the type of milk is A2? From someone’s review on Amazon – A1 is the newer milk in an evolutionary sense, with the mutation responsible arising somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 years ago, at a time when cattle were being taken north into Europe. A2 milk is the original structure. All goat milk, most sheep milk, and some cow milk is A2. In the United States, though, most of the milk produced has a very high proportion of A1 milk. The danger from A1 milk is in its protein… Read more »
Shawn
Shawn
2 years 9 months ago
what about your typical cheddar cheese(off the block, not shredded or processed) that you pick up at your local grocer? does that have the same effect as the raw, organic, grass-fed harder-to-find and very expensive cheeses mentioned in this article? i know conventional cheeses have less CLA than grassfed, but would be curious in general if they are sitll considered ‘primal’. I am T1 diabetic and eat quite a bit of cheese, probly 4 oz/day, mostly from a local cheese factory(local but not organic or grassfed). I also get kerrygold dubliner when i get a chance to get to the… Read more »
Audry
Audry
2 years 9 months ago
I would like to give my opinion here, if you don’t mind. First of all, 4oz daily! That’s a lot of cheese, for anyone. A good moderate amount would be 1-2 oz with a meal or as a snack with some nuts, 2-3 times a week. Cheese should be sharp in flavor so you are not tempted to over eat, plus better for you since is has more beneficial bacteria. It should also be whitish/yellow (the color of real milk) It should be looked at as more of a flavor enhancer. It may not have an effect on your blood… Read more »
DB
DB
2 years 9 months ago

I drink raw cow and goat milk. Fortunately it’s legal here if you go to the farm to pick it up. Switched to that about 7 years ago. I won’t touch the store bought.

Most who can’t tolerate store bought dairy have no problem with raw.

ShaSha
ShaSha
2 years 9 months ago

To: “Janknitz” on being evolved to metabolize “dairy” at birth.

To answer your quote:
Human breast milk is not “dairy”. Strictly speaking “dairy” as we commonly use the word, comes only from bovine and humans are not bovine, therefore human breast milk cannot be “dairy”.

There is a vast difference between being able to metabolize our mother’s milk and that of another species. This also evidenced by the fact that many human babies cannot tolerate cow’s (dairy) milk.

Grok on!

ShaSha
ShaSha
2 years 9 months ago

Continued:

That being said, I think full fat dairy, as Mark says, has a great deal to recommend it and is a very useful, versatile, not to mention delicious whole food.

John Davis
John Davis
2 years 9 months ago

A book you recommended, deep nutrition, likes sprouted foods. I’m wondering if butter on sprouted wheat sourdough bread(sprouted and fermented) is bad? JD

Jim
Jim
2 years 9 months ago

I think that the Paleo objection to dairy has to do with bovine estrogen and insulin growth hormone(s?). I have seen dairy referred to as “filtered cow’s blood”. I have also seen it cited as an increase factor for Parkinson’s

What are the comments relative to this?

Katerina
Katerina
2 years 9 months ago
There were two studies (that I’m aware of) on the correlation of dairy consumption and occurrence of Parkinson’s by the same research team. The first found a positive association http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12447934 but the second study looked closer into different types of dairy and found that only milk consumption presented the positive association with the Parkinson’s http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/165/9/998/T2.expansion.html Moreover, they found that it was the proteins in the milk, the sugars, vit D and calcium(from dairy origin) and not the fat http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/165/9/998.full#T2 . Plus they found this correlation to be significant for men only while it was pretty much unclear for women. In… Read more »
Stacie
2 years 9 months ago

My mouth is watering. I need to go to the store over my lunch break and get some cheeeeese.

Andreina
Andreina
2 years 9 months ago

So if one is not lactose intolerant and enjoys a glass of milk here and there (especially with a small does of dark chocolate during the cold nights) I can have organic milk correct? What is the proper milk “legal” milk that is Paleo friendly? I’m also gonna head to the market and get me of my favorite sheep cheese and manchego I’ve been craving!!!! Of course, in moderation… = )D

Rocky
Rocky
2 years 9 months ago

Thank you for this post Mark! I’m currently making my first batch of homemade Raw Milk Kefir. Hopefully it turns out OK!

Rocky.

Nocona
Nocona
2 years 9 months ago

Are you using grains or powder? Powder is easier with no straining involved. I make my own all the time and it’s so easy. Not one ruined batch yet. Good luck with your first batch.

Lisa Wolfe
2 years 9 months ago
I am pleased to see that dairy can be included in a “primal” diet. Unpasteurized goat milk and kefir that I make from some of it has been a significant part of my otherwise pretty paleo diet for years. And I do well on it. I do think that the quality of the dairy is critical. Any milk/yogurt you buy in the store is pretty highly processed and most of it is from CAFO mega-corporate farms, where the animals live in horrendous conditions and are fed antibiotics and other toxic substances. I get my milk from a local farmer who… Read more »
Kris
Kris
2 years 9 months ago

I had no idea that fermenting impacted the casein. I’ll have to look into that.

Kris
Kris
2 years 9 months ago

Found it: “A study published in the January 2010 issue of the “Journal of Dairy Science” showed that the enzymes present in kefir break down milk caseins. The resulting substances — known as peptides — have a broad range of health-promoting effects. They can, for example, bolster your immune system.”

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/548413-kefir-enzymes/#ixzz2mSKY5ROd

trackback

[…] One thing that sets the Primal way of eating apart from other ancestral health approaches is our acceptance of dairy fat. Obviously, those people who can’t tolerate dairy shouldn’t eat it, but in my experience a significant portion of the community can handle high-quality, full-fat dairy, especially butter, yogurt, and cheese. We lik… Mark’s Daily Apple […]

maidel
maidel
2 years 9 months ago

My dad, a Swede from the old country, used to make a fermented milk dish from raw milk from our Jersey cow, Bertha. Sprinkled a little cinnamon on top of a little dish of it and gave it to me. It was divine. Wish I knew how he did it! It was milder, creamier and less acid than yogurt. He always told me it would make me strong. (It did.)

Shannon
Shannon
2 years 9 months ago

I bet it was filmjolk. It used to be homemade by nearly everyone in Sweden. You can buy starter online. Nick’s Natural Nook on eBay has good feedback 🙂

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[…] Should You Be Eating High-Fat Dairy? […]

JoyAnn
JoyAnn
2 years 9 months ago

Glad to hear of the planned post about how to tell if you are dairy intolerant. Thanks!

Brittney
Brittney
2 years 9 months ago

But.. when you think about how this is “PRIMAL” the way we ate ages and ages ago… they didn’t make cheese. So, how is that part of the ” primal blueprint” I’m not against cheese.. I’m just curious how it fits in when people talk about eating how we ate ages ago. you know what I mean?? I want to know how to respond to people when they ask me this! 🙂 because they didn’t make cheese back then..

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