Marks Daily Apple
Serving up health and fitness insights (daily, of course) with a side of irreverence.
20 Mar

Caffeine Talk

Got your morning (or afternoon) joe in hand? For many readers, this would be a yes. Even if you said no, it might just be because you’ve joined ranks with the tea crowd. And, while cultural practice (a mug on the work desk being as American as apple pie) and taste are undoubtedly big draws, for many of us it all boils down to that rousing, invigorating, motivating little substance: caffeine.

When it comes to caffeine, there’s a lot of dissent among those who in some way align themselves with the paleo approach. Purists shun it. Some partake sheepishly and publicly support tea more than coffee, cocoa or unsweetened caffeinated sports waters. Still others openly embrace caffeine as a reasonable compromise. (You’re harder pressed to find common support for soft and sports drinks.)

It’s true that Grok had no Starbucks or Tazo. But should we “can” caffeine?

We should first get the antioxidant issue on the table. Tea, coffee and cocoa, indeed, sport some lovely little flavonoids, but a diet rich in fruit and vegetables can offer the same. The issue is caffeine, the stimulant, itself.

As a stimulant, caffeine offers the temporary benefits of improved concentration, enhanced memory and an extra bit of energy. However, this “heightened” state has some unappealing physical effects as well. Obviously, there are the proverbial caffeine jitters and, for a few people who are either caffeine sensitive or who regularly overindulgence, even heart flutterings. But there’s more. Recent caffeine consumption can reduce blood flow to the heart during exercise.

And, apparently, some of us are “slow caffeine metabolizers” (who knew?). Being part of this crowd and partaking of caffeine, some research shows, puts us at increased risk for non-fatal heart attacks. Caffeine has been shown to also raise blood sugar levels in those with type 2 diabetes.

Additionally, caffeine induces heartburn in many people. Given that prescriptions targeting acid reflux are so common these days, we often wonder how much caffeine plays into many people’s symptoms. At a certain point for certain people, caffeine probably isn’t worth it just from that standpoint alone.

And then there’s the question of why we reach for the mug in the morning (and perhaps the afternoon). Is it really just a pick-me-up, or is it a band-aid for a larger problem like sleep deprivation, hormonal imbalance, lack of physical activity, lack of adequate sunlight, you name it. Are we really taking care of ourselves?

And is caffeine the only answer? Would heading out for a morning walk offer the same benefit? If you’re falling asleep at your desk come 2:30 p.m., would working out over the lunch hour make a difference? We’d argue that scrutinizing caffeine consumption is about the why, how much, and what else, more than a resounding yes or absolute no.

For some of us, in the end, a small amount of caffeine can be a true (and, arguably, truly needed) leg up. It’s a compromise we make in the context of our real, harried modern lives: global business trips with inevitable jet lag, heavy workloads with last minute deadlines, teething toddlers we’re up with half the night, etc. We make a commitment to truly take care of ourselves day to day, but the caffeine option is there to help get us over the hump. It’s a moderate dose of concession in the midst of a busy and otherwise healthy lifestyle.

And maybe that can bring us back to the convenient antioxidant justification. If it should count as an indulgence, why not make it one with a few health benefits on the side?

Send us your perspectives, reasons for abstaining, rationales for imbibing.

Refracted Moments, dawn_perry, clara & james Flickr Photos (CC)

Further Reading:

Sensible Vices

Tea Time

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Imagine you’re George Clooney. Take a moment to admire your grooming and wit. Okay, now imagine someone walks up to you and asks, “What’s your name?” You say, “I’m George Clooney.” Or maybe you say, “I’m the Clooninator!” You don’t say “I’m George of George Clooney Sells Movies Blog” and you certainly don’t say, “I’m Clooney Weight Loss Plan”. So while spam is technically meat, it ain’t anywhere near Primal. Please nickname yourself something your friends would call you.

  1. I began to notice a ‘reverse’ effect of too much caffeine consumption making me feel fatigued, like I had done an intense workout earlier in the day. I used to drink a lot of coffee AND do a lot of intense workouts, so I figured it was the exercise.

    But then I noticed it on days I had no reason to feel physically fatigued neither from intense effort nor lack of sleep. I tied it to the excess coffee over a period of days of purposefully drinking too much on light workout days and not drinking so much on hard days.

    Now I have coffee on my way to the gym in the morning and sometimes a second cup later with breakfast after the workout. Then it’s black tea the rest of the morning; green tea in the afternoon; and only herb- or decaffeinated-tea in the late afternoon and evening. Haven’t had an episode of fatigue since.

    I wonder how many other people experience this then reach for another cup of joe as the ‘solution’?

    Brian A wrote on March 20th, 2008
    • Caffeine comments or “Does the internet make everyone’s opinions particularly extreme?”

      It’s hard to believe how opinionated and extreme people’s comments are about coffee. The comments range from the bland to the extreme (coffee is horrible… it makes you sick) to the hypochondriacal (coffee causes every possible physical and mental malady in the ICD-10).

      Coffee gives you a mild buzz. Drink it or don’t drink it. If you want a real buzz, take methamphetamine. If you really want to get addicted, take oxycontin. Otherwise, get real and stop whining.

      Mr. Niceguy wrote on September 14th, 2012
  2. The Quick stop by my house used to sell a “Double Big Gulp” for $1.87. That’s 64oz. of soda for under 2 bucks. I’d down one daily, always diet coke (because diet coke is healthy, right?). By the end of the day I would be bouncing off the walls from the caffeine. I couldn’t focus or sit still. I still do the 64oz a day, but now it’s water. Also, I keep doing Starbucks, but I believe I’m more addicted to the Norah Jones atmosphere than the caffeine.

    McFlanigan Fish wrote on March 20th, 2008
  3. I stopped going to Starbucks specifically because I couldn’t stand the Norah Jones. To each his own…

    Dave wrote on March 20th, 2008
  4. so around 1.5 years ago (at 44.5), I got into a cup of coffee in the morning for some um!! digestive help. Despite doing everything right, my system liked that jumpstart!! I dont think I couldve counted the times I had coffee (in my whole life) before that on one hand!! This was around the same time I started being more vigilant on my path to fitness (CF) and all!! Now I always drink home brewed organic java (rarely frequent Starbucks and then basically only if with a friend for a tea). I usually have 1-2 cups in the morning before I start my day and an occas cup of yerba mate too! No caffeine for me after 10 am as it effects my sleep at night!

    I tried stopping the coffee in Dec 07 but I wasnt as energetic and had the same plumbing difficulty that sent me to the coffee!

    sarena wrote on March 20th, 2008
  5. I can’t handle caffeine. At low doses I like the energy it gives me, but the come down just isn’t worth it. I envy those that can drink coffee with no side effects because I love the taste. I will indulge in a periodic mug of green tea on the weekends or when I have a big workout ahead of me, but often times I find (especially if I drink it on back to back days) that the day after I drink it I get a headache. I must be especially sensitive to caffeine. On the occasions when I have had an entire cup of coffee I got really jittery, irritable and uncomfortable.

    Tony wrote on March 20th, 2008
  6. I enjoy a cup and a half to two cups of coffee most days of the week. I find it helps to get my digestive system going in the morning. Suffering from IBS, I’ve ready many materials suggesting that I avoid coffee and other caffeinated beverages like the plague, but my body handles it fairly well. I’ve had IBS for some 10 years, and I only started drinking coffee about 9 months ago. I’ve noticed no change for the worse, and, instead, found that coffee helps to soothe my rumbling stomach and gets me going, in more ways than one.

    I actually enjoy the taste of plain, black coffee, so much so that I’d even spring for a cup of decaf at night, if the mood strikes me. When I first started drinking it, the caffeine buzz would smack me right upside the head. I’d feel buzzed and giddy, kinda like I had had a few drinks. It was very strange. Now my body seems to have grown used to it. I don’t seem to suffer any ill effects if I skip the coffee for a few days, so I don’t think I’m addicted. I’ve heard horror stories about people trying to quit caffeine and getting raging headaches after a day or two without.

    Mike Drew wrote on March 20th, 2008
  7. Coffee is Not a band-aid for anything! Maybe it is this whole health craze that has kept you from really enjoying coffee. Try taking a week off from the gym and vacation indoors with a fresh cup of Black Joe in front of your TV.

    Joey wrote on March 20th, 2008
  8. I think I’m one of those slow metabolizers of caffeine, which makes me really sad. I love a good cappuccino in the morning! But if I have any sort of caffeine after about noon I can’t sleep that night, and even too many days in a row of *decaf* coffee will eventually keep me up all night. I also really dislike how the caffeine makes me feel, jittery and shaky and my heart races and it intensifies my anxiety. But I still indulge once in a while, especially if I have a busy day planned because then I don’t notice the effects as much.

    Nancy S wrote on March 20th, 2008
  9. Wow, I had a memory crop up about when I was a younger gentleman probably in 4th or 5th grade. Does anyone remember Jolt Cola??? It was this hyper caffeinated, well come to think of it, it is exactly how it sounds. A friend of mine, Matt Bodell Layton used to drink that stuff and just go crazy at school for about an hour. I remember the boys in my class had to read petitions at mass (catholic school) in front of the all school mass and the old people that came to church. We drank Jolt Cola before we had to read it. I mean we all slammed dunked as much Jolt Cola we could before morning mass. And none of us could stand still, we were laughing and carrying on like crazy people. The priest, Father Dennis. Calmly got up and walked over to us, which was the scariest thing in the world btw, and took us to the office behind the church, locked us in, and told us to stare at the wall. We still could not sit still and congregation could still hear us going nuts in this office. All the other students in the church started laughing and all of us could here the kids in church laughing so we began to laugh much, much harder. We also we getting very loud. Anyway our teacher came back and yelled at us so loud that everyone busted into tears laughing so hard. We were all sent home for the day. Luckily my grandmother was in church that morning and I went home with her. She bought myself a subway sandwich. When I came crashing down off the Jolt Cola high. I slept for what seemed like a week. I still cannot believe that stuff was legal. It was like crack cocaine in a can.

    Digger Mcdyce wrote on March 20th, 2008
    • Used to drink it to and I agree! I

      Brian Self wrote on November 12th, 2014
  10. Bunch o’ thoughts.

    1. Is it the caffeine that causes heartburn, or some other compound in coffee? I find that decaf, consumed in excess, aggravates my acid reflux. I almost never drink caffeinated coffee, but I’ve had to cut way back on the decaf, too.

    2. I never fall asleep after lunch (or, heavens, after breakfast) any more, now that I gave up carb heavy meals.

    3. Sarena – I think the effect on your plumbing may also be caused by some other compound in coffee besides the caffeine, because decaf has the same effect on me.

    4. Starbucks is a victory of style over substance. Their coffee is demonstrably terrible. They overroast it on purpose to get rid of the volatile oils that cause coffee to go bad. Removing these oils increases the shelf life tremendously. The problem is that those volatile oils are also what makes coffee taste good. So they have deliberately made their product inferior in order to extend its shelf life and foist stale coffee off on you, the consumer, at an obscene price. The joke’s on you, yuk, yuk. (Or maybe I should say, “Yuck, yuck.”) No wonder that most of the Starbucks coffee drinks have a giant pile of sugar or dairy added to them – who could stand to drink the stuff au naturel? Lest you think I’m fussing at Starbucks because they are a giant chain, I discovered a while ago that one of the Whole Foods stores in my area roasts coffee fresh daily. If you get there at the right time, the metal scoop in the bulk bin will be warm from the freshly roasted coffee. So that’s where I buy mine. I drink it with a tiny bit of heavy cream. It’s utter luxury, and even at $13/lb, it’s a bargain compared to Starbucks because I brew it myself – and I actually like drinking it!

    Migraineur wrote on March 20th, 2008
    • About the acid reflux: I’ve had trouble with coffee giving me heartburn for years, and I believe it’s the acidity of drip coffee. It takes tons of espresso to give me the same problem, and it never happens with tea. And when too much coffee has given me an acid-sensitive stomach, other acidic things like orange juice, tomatoes, and onions can also hurt.

      Noah wrote on December 2nd, 2011
    • Freshly roasted coffee beans have little taste. After the beans are roasted they must sit, usually overnight, to develop the oils that produce the flavor.

      GoatSalad wrote on December 31st, 2011
    • I am a great fan of Starbucks because I prefer my coffee more mellow, as you would get in Spain, rather than the sharper, bitter, high roast that I associate with Italian coffee. On occasion I’m at the bar when they open a new vacuum packed bag o’ beans. I love that ‘cos the smell is always amazing and the beans glisten with a coat of oil (which the de-caff beans don’t seem to have), and, as far as I’m concerned, those beans have been roasted to perfection. I always get the barista to let me have an espresso paper cup of them, and I’ll munch on them throughout the day. After a day or so the beans lose that coating and with it a goes a lot of the flavour.
      I personally think that a lot of people have a thing about Starbucks because they’re a huge, successful capitalist exploiter (possibly) of impoverished third world farmers, but they’re cleaning up their act, and if you actually take the time to formulate your ideal coffee in terms of shots, size, amount of milk, type of milk, temperature, they’ll make it for you, and if you think they haven’t done it right, they’ll chuck it away and have another go!

      Habanerohead wrote on October 17th, 2012
  11. I drink one cup of coffee in the morning upon rising. It’s a habitual ritual and I enjoy the taste very much. It helps me wake up, but I’m still not sure if it’s the ritual or the caffeine.
    Although my guess is, that it is both.

    Starbucks? Starsucks 😉

    Tatsujin wrote on March 20th, 2008
  12. Ooooh how I love-a my java. And my green tea when I’m taking especially good care of myself. But what about a cup of hot water? This is an amazingly simple, healthful, and available form of liquid satisfaction any time of day. Skeptical? Take a day off the cuppa cuppa and drink a cup of hot water instead. Ayurveda recommends a hot lemon treatment first thing in the belly each morning and I find that’ll “get things moving” as well as Joe. I have been surprised at how easily H2O can substitute for coffee. Period.

    DanaLovesLife wrote on March 21st, 2008
  13. it is the sign of a true addict that I feel superior (tongue firmly implanted in cheek) that I derive my caffeine from a hot mug in the morning rather than a canned energy drink or (*gasp*) a PILL.

    ahhh, excuses.
    how I HEART thee.


    MizFit wrote on March 21st, 2008
  14. Like many – I have a love/hate relationship with coffee.

    Pros – (1)Increased energy; (2) Increased focus; (3)Increased digestive function.

    Cons – (1) Pulled muscles; (2) increased compulsive/obsessive behavior; (3) anxiety.

    I now limit my coffee consumption. I use it when I really need to focus on one long task or need a kick start. Otherwise I drink green or black tea. Yeah, tea still has caffeine, but at an amount that does not adversely me.

    I feel like I am a different person, depending on what I am drinking.

    Phillip wrote on March 21st, 2008
  15. Every time I see that mug o’ beans on the front page, I want to dive right in.

    Kaitlin wrote on March 21st, 2008
  16. I probably “don’t need it” but man does a good Americano or expresso shot just taste soooo good to start the day off especially sitting outside. One a day for me. I used to do 5 cups of coffee a day a long time ago…and that was not healthy.

    Mike OD - IF Life wrote on March 21st, 2008
  17. Always funny to hear statements like, “Starbucks coffee is demonstrably terrible” when taste is completely subjective. My aunt who is a life long coffee lover thinks McDonald’s is the best coffee ever created. Here in our office we have people who will only drink Pete’s and only if it’s made in a press; others swear by Starbucks and others, some totally esoteric brand for $8 or more a cup. They all insist that their’s is best and the others are crap.
    To each his/her own.

    Kevin Burnett wrote on March 21st, 2008
  18. Kevin, I see your point. Maybe I was indulging in my lifelong habit of hyperbole.

    However, I used the word “demonstrably” deliberately – it would be hard to find someone who did not agree that stale food is inferior to fresh food. I meant to say that the roasting procedure used by Starbucks’ roasting procedure makes it possible to sell stale coffee to the public.

    I wonder how subjective quality really is. There’s certainly an element of subjectivity – I may never ever like bananas, no matter how fresh they are, how they are served, how they are prepared, etc. But to some extent I can recognize the difference between a good quality banana (fresh, ripe) and a bad one (rotten, smelly or green, hard). There are a lot of people who stick what they know out of familiarity, until someone shows them something better. I grew up drinking my mother’s terrible coffee, but once I was introduced to something better, it didn’t take long to recognize it.

    Migraineur wrote on March 21st, 2008
  19. Hello, I’m Marie and I’m a pancake junkie…I’ve been eating them 5-8 times per week for the past two months…. I just feel compelled to confess that, as I was downing my most recent stack while reading these comments :)
    A couple thoughts: I find everything about coffee disgusting: the smell, the taste, the concentrated caffeine..eeew!
    Most of the people at work who I see drinking coffee are really drinking hot milkshakes for grownups…judging by the amount of creamer and sugar they put in.
    I love tea and drink a few pots per day…and it makes me happy. Mark, you are making a big, fat excuse for the one vise you have left; but I think really good health is about balance (which, judging by my carb-nightmare-pancake-addiction, is not a state I currently enjoy)
    I have never noticed a caffeine boost…I go straight to sick; with nausea and heart palpitations if I have too much.

    Marie wrote on March 22nd, 2008
  20. I, for one, LOVE my coffee. I teach high schoolers chemistry all day, and that “little” venti brew with sugar free vanilla syrup is what gets me going….I may have given up on bread, thanks to Mark, but I simply cannot give up my morning Starbucks coffee.

    Cortney wrote on March 22nd, 2008
  21. Aaaah, a nice Americano with half & half or heavy cream, made with locally roasted beans. I don’t bother with drip coffee anymore, if I can help it.

    Anna wrote on March 23rd, 2008
  22. Nice post. Caffeine is pretty much a requirement in our culture due to our reluctance to actually go to sleep. Burning the candle at both ends, eating the wrong foods, being out of shape, etc all contribute to a society where caffeine addiction is not just acceptable, but necessary. I had a post about energy drinks and their booming industry a few weeks ago.

    Just a note though…cocoa actually doesn’t contain caffeine. It contains a cousin of caffeine known as theobromine, which is why the stuff will kill your dog. It can’t metabolize the theobromine very quickly and can easily overdose.

    Scott Kustes
    Modern Forager

    Scott Kustes wrote on March 24th, 2008
  23. I love a non fat 20 ounce cappucino but it does not like me. I feel fine when I drink it but about an hour later I get all jittery and it usually will put me into a panic attack. I can’t breath and I feel instant doom! Am I the only one that feels this? Can it really be dangerous for me? And the biggest question is why can I drink it sometimes and have no reaction at all but other times I feel horrible! I don’t understand how one cup can have such an adverse reaction.I only drink it every once in awhile but I would like to drink it more often.

    Kris wrote on April 3rd, 2008
  24. Kris – funny how a drink can impact us differently on different days. I have noticed when my aerobic activity is high, caffeine impacts me more. Just a thought…

    Phillip wrote on April 4th, 2008
  25. Kris – I have a similar reaction to alcohol. Sometimes I can handle one or two drinks, but last night I had two glasses of wine and I am *seriously* hung over.

    With caffeine – nowadays I drink mostly decaf. But in my past life, I noticed I was less tolerant of caffeine if I also consumed sugar. The combination would throw me into what I now know was reactive hypoglycemia much faster than sugar alone.

    Are you drinking non-fat because you actually like it, or because you think fat is bad for you? I am a big believer in the healing power of butterfat!

    Migraineur wrote on April 4th, 2008
  26. I have abused caffeine for years now. There have been times when I would stop for a month or two and I was able to focus and not feel so anxious. I am caffeine sensitive but am also dependent on it. Can never seem to get it in gear in the morning if I don’t have at least a 44oz cup of coffee. I am planning to stop tomorrow, the caffeine is affecting my work, I feel like some kid with a.d.d. I am unable to confront people because of the anxiety it causes and I can’t sit still without getting bored immediatly.

    william wrote on April 22nd, 2008
  27. I had to give up caffeine years ago, it raises my blood pressure about 20 points for 4 hours, just for a single 8oz. cup. I used to pound down cup after cup, so my BP was always elevated. My pulse rate *slows* about 5bpm as well. I would say 4 hours of raised BP after a single cup indicates I’m a slow metabolizer.

    Now I roast and brew my own (got tired of waiting in line at Starbucks). I make decaf espresso, with half and half, maybe twice a week. That’s my cheat.

    Mike Gruber wrote on August 7th, 2009
  28. Hm…those of you who mentioned increased digestive properties are making me think. I started drinking coffee regularly about 2-3 years ago. I drink about 1-2 cups per day, never more.

    Also, in the last few years, I have noticed…increased (and rushed, lol) bathroom trips. Especially in the morning (after drinking coffee).

    As one who has never had much problem with constipation, I never worried about getting things “flowing” as it were.

    So, these last few years have had me wondering just why I’ve been rushing to the bathroom. Maybe I just found the missing link? I could be the coffee!

    I’ll have to do some self studies on this!

    Laurie wrote on November 18th, 2009
  29. I love a nice cup or two of coffee in the morn but don’t consider it a “crutch” by any means.

    I’ve come a long way too; now I have a tablespoon of honey to sweeten vs the old inch or so of french vanilla/hazelnut creamer I used to use. Now my coffee tastes like COFFEE (gasp!) with a subtle sweetness from the honey.

    CrzyDJM wrote on June 22nd, 2010
  30. This post is funny. Cuz while we all know it’s bad for us, pretty much every comment says “well I know it’s bad and stuff, but I still like it every single day. I used to drink a lot more of it so it’s ok.”
    No wonder they call it the most widely used drug in the world.

    Ronstar wrote on July 10th, 2010
    • Actually sugar (and it’s identical twin brother HFCS) is probably the most used drug in the world.

      WalterB wrote on August 10th, 2011
  31. I am a coffee addict, I sit on my butt all day in front of a computer at work. We have free coffee that we brew ourselves, it smells and tastes so good.

    The problem is I reach for it every time I’m tired, stuck on a problem, or feel bloated. It got to the point of at least 4-5 8oz cups a day on an average day.

    I’ve been this way for years and slowly began to feel so “brittle”, my knees and hips ached. I knew it had something to do with the coffee but I kept trying to overcompensate with ibuprofen, fish oils, glucosamine, icing my knees at night but I still felt awful physically.
    I was 44 years old and felt like an 80 year old or worse. Just walking down a flight of stairs killed my knees.

    I made 1 simple change, decided to try and quit coffee for 7 days to see if I felt better. After 3 days of pounding headaches and withdrawals I could not believe how much better and less brittle I felt. In general all of my joints felt so much better, I was walking and exercising with far less pain. My head on the other hand still gave me pounding headaches and the devil on my shoulder saying “cmon just have a cup!”. My problem is I love coffee so much 1 cup leads to several.

    I think my body is/was so overloaded with the acid from the coffee that it was starting to affect my health severely, I could feel my joints inflamed and I’m sure since they were inflamed my whole body was as well – which means I’m well on my way to chronic disease….

    Here I am 10 days out from quitting coffee, physically I feel so much better. Its a rainy crappy cold morning and I’d love a hot cup of joe (can’t drink tea, just not my taste), but I’m trying to see the big picture and health benefits. I hope at some point I have no withdrawal feelings and could enjoy an occasional cup here and there.

    But for now I will relish in that I’m starting to feel more my age and less like an 80 year old, which means plenty more skiing and fun activities.

    So stay strong if you’re trying to quit, I was having a “weak” moment myself this morning which is why I was reading this, but it has passed and I’m fine without any coffee for at least 1 more day.

    Bob Hennessey wrote on November 8th, 2010
    • I have the same experience with aching joints and feeling “brittle”. The first time I quit coffee, I abstained for 10 years. After the first few weeks, I didn’t even think about it. Unfortunately, for various reasons, I got back into the habit again. I cannot count the number of times I have quit since then because the effects were making me sick. Each time, I managed to convince myself that I would only have one “now and again”. For me, one is never enough and it always leads to more. This, even though I know it does me more harm than good. What a drug!

      Lisa wrote on August 17th, 2013
  32. I drink one 4-8 oz cup of dark black high quality (so says the purveyor) coffee every morning. It gives me an energy boost but most importantly, it’s the only thing I’ve found that seems to completely prevent gallstone attacks.

    If I miss a day of my daily dose, I can almost surely count on a gall stone attack that night.

    Has anyone else had that experience?

    Jamie wrote on December 28th, 2010
  33. I recently quit coffee for over a month after learning that stimulants can compromise immune function, and I didn’t like the idea of my adrenals going out of whack either. When quitting, I didn’t even have a caffeine headache (which surprised me because when I’ve quit before, I _always_ do), but I did feel a little slumpy.

    Anyway, I just missed coffee overall — I like the little high, I love the taste, and it gets things going in the AM. I’m a big tea drinker throughout the day (green in the AM then only rooibos) but tea just doesn’t do it for me as the get-going beverage. So, I’m back to a giant mug of black in the morning and I am so glad.

    Catt wrote on February 6th, 2011

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