Dear Mark: Beans/Legumes
Dear Mark,
I’m a former vegetarian who still enjoys cooking with all kinds of beans. I don’t see them in any of the MDA recipes. What’s your take on them?
Legumes (beans, lentils, chickpeas, split peas, etc.) aren’t, by any means, the worst thing you can eat, but they don’t make the ideal meal either. In my estimation, legumes fall into the “O.K.” category with wine, chocolate, cheese and other dairy, etc.
On the upside, legumes offer protein, and they tend to be good sources of several minerals like potassium and magnesium. On the downside, they offer only a moderate at best amount of protein (generally 4-9 grams per ½ cup serving). As the How to Eat Enough Protein post showed, legumes’ protein content is dwarfed by the 28 grams you’d get from a cup of cottage cheese or the 50+ grams you’d get from six ounces of several meats. And this relatively small amount of protein comes with a hefty carb content: as high as 28 grams for that same ½ cup serving!
Because legumes generally contain so much soluble fiber, they won’t result in sudden blood sugar spikes. However, as I said a while back in the whole grain post, at the end of the day carbs are carbs.
Yet, the Primal Blueprint philosophy allows for some carbohydrate content. I’ve suggested in the past 150 grams as a daily ceiling. There’s certainly reason to shoot for less (100 is even better), but 150 grams can be a reasonable goal for many of us. The key is to make as much of that carb “allowance” vegetable-based as possible. Legumes offer nutritional benefits, but what they offer can be found in equal to greater amounts within other foods that have lower carb content.
All this said, not all legumes are created equal. Some, like lentils, have higher protein content. Others, like peas, have lower carb content. Both glycemic index and glycemic load vary among legumes. Check out this “International Table” for more info on legumes and hundreds of other foods.
The ultimate point on “O.K.” foods is this: if you can make the majority of your diet “best source” foods (meat for protein, vegetables for carbs, etc.), you’ll meet your daily nutrient goals and have room to include a few “lesser benefit but high enjoyment” foods such as dairy and legumes. (That is, if you consider beans exciting. Cheese I can understand, but give me a a big salad over a bowl of kidney beans any day.)
An additional note: the bioavailability of minerals in legumes is compromised by the body’s difficulty in digesting them (hence the flatulence jokes). If you’re going to include legumes in your diet, preparation is everything. Diligent and tailored soaking processes are necessary for the proper digestion and nutrient absorption of legumes.
Check back in the near future as I’ll be posting exactly what I eat in a typical day and how it breaks down in calories from protein, fat and carbs. Thanks for your questions and comments, everyone. As always, if you have a suggestion for “Dear Mark,” shoot me a line.
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Posted By: Mark Sisson
Sue-Beans probably reduce your LDL cholesterol level for two reasons: first, because they contain soluble fiber, which binds bile acids in the GI tract (http://books.google.com/books?id=MQYNgHEaxZMC&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=soluble+fiber+ldl+effect+mechanism&source=web&ots=Jt9vAvhpGI&sig=AXvnM5tPd4NwOCDj32zYN2Y2s3A&hl=en)
and second, because the sterols in the beans also reduce bile acid absorption. Because high cholesterol levels have been linked to heart disease, and recently the risk of Alzheimer’s, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080416081641.htm, it’s another reason to love beans!
Best,
JL
http://www.ChefMD.com/book.php
John,
there was a study that linked high carb, sugar consumption to alzheimer’s. Eating a high fat, moderate protein diet is very beneficial for the brain.
Generally I do not post on blogs, but I would like to say that this post really forced me to do so! really nice post.
Are chickpeas really that bad? I always find a meal done with chickpeas in the slow cooker is very satisfying. I guess like you say in this article though, carbs are carbs…..
Hi
I wondered if anyone could give me some advice. I don’t eat meat, fish, or any flesh. I don’t eat eggs or milk. I’m mostly vegan, but not arsy about it and will eat cheese if there’s nothing else. Anyway, I need to lose weight (only about 20 pounds) and found that reducing carbs does help. But, it’s such a problem as you can imagine – there’s not much left to choose from. If you could advise me, what would you suggest I eat most of, or cut back on most, eg cut out wheat, increase beans – by the way I hate cooking but like potatoes! I do need to exercise more I know, and have started doing so, but I’m middle aged and don’t want to overdo it, but I’m so sick of looking fat and feeling sluggish. I’ve only had this problem for about 8 years and was always slim and active before that (even though I was vegetarian).
@Eve
Your diet is a big problem. Are you religious about it. Or you think that you are helping the animals. I don’t know where you are coming from.
The important thing to lose fat is to get into low carb periods. This can be done by eating very little carbs during some times, could be by fasting. The longer the carb periods the faster the loss will be.
You could fast all the time and lose a lot of fat, but the problem is that you also need a lot of vitamins and minerals for your body’s daily needs.
So you cannot go on a long fast also. Vegetarian or vegan diet is nutritionally very poor, so you must get a lot of supplements. I don’t know where you will get enough Omega3. The only good supplement is fish oil. You must get some B12, zinc, etc.
Read a lot about nutrition, if you are serious about living mostly vegan. It is a sure recipe to destroy your body. Vegetarians have at least some ways to get the healthy animal fats.
I am also mostly vegetarian, but Mostly is the key word. And I am also thinking a lot about supplementing.
Best of luck, may you survive your diet.
I was a long-term vegetarian (~20 years) for ethical reasons. Eventually I came to terms with the fact that I was born an omnivore, not an herbivore, and nature itself is a harsh mistress.
Ultimately, the choice you have to make is whether you care more about barnyard animals than you do about yourself and your family.
It’d be nice if that choice wasn’t necessary, but, well, the real world is far from what I would consider ideal (and this is only the tip of the iceberg)
But this is the life you’ve got, so make the most of it!
Hi
Thanks for your reply. I don’t eat meat because it makes me want to gag when I think about what I’m eating. There are probably other reasons around animal welfare etc, but don’t want to start a debate on that
Can anyone tell me what the max carbs are that I can eat in any one day. I looked on fat-loss 101 and it said that any intake over 100g per day will lead to weight gain. I can do 100g a day on some days, but I’m a night owl and sometimes get the munchies when I can’t sleep. I’ve tried saving my carb allowance for night time, but it’s so hard. Can I have up to 150g per day do you think?
thanks for your help.
I was a vegetarian for 15 years. I can offer some advice. What you don’t want to be is a GRAIN-FAT a tarian. Which is sadly what most vegetarians end up being. If you can consume milk and eggs then you will do much better – cottage cheese, buttermilk, yogurt. These fermented/consumed types of dairy are most healthy. Other options are Tempeh which is fermented soy. Tempeh is gross but grilled tempeh with the right sauce is ok. But the MAIN ADVICE is to UP UP UUUUUPPPP your veggies and fruits. And to ditch the grains. Beans should be light or occasional as a vegetarian (a dal every now and then, some chickpeas on salad. but not every meal). The worst thing you can do is be a Pizza-a-tarian vegetarian, grains and fat. Ugh! Finally Whey-berry shakes in the morning (with milk or water) are a great way to get extra protein.
Even though I now eat meat, I still occasionally get a craving for tempeh. I can’t say the same for tofu or manufactured pseudo-meats…
Tempeh is real food, and it’s easier to digest than other legume-based foods. Goes well cooked in barbecue sauce (yeah, some sugar carbs, but it’s not like eating bread).
I also like tempeh with miso, but that’s probably more of an acquired taste.
So peas are not a veggie from the “Optimal” group? They’re a legume from the “you can get away with it in moderation” group? Greaaaaaaatt.
What’s the thinking on bean sprouts? Are they still classed as carbs or are they salad/veg.
Broccoli sprouts are supposed to be a “superfood”, but what about lentil sprouts, mung bean sprouts etc?
Do they contain lectins or other “anti-nutrients”?
Bean sprouts are included in one of the recipes in the free user generated cookbook you got when you signed up. So beans can’t be that bad if bean sprouts are in a salad, I think.
I’m sorry but the tortoise and the hair analogy was absolutely priceless! Barry, for someone with clearly ZERO experience in the field of nutrition, it amazes me that you would have the audacity to question and insult a man of Marks standing. And for the record, Bodybuilding reflects deep insecurities . Which is why (as Rippetoe says)you feel the need to paint yourself brown and stand onstage in your underwear, showing your muscles off to other men.
What about pooping? Whenever I go low-carb I get constipated and there is nothing worse than not being able to go poo. What do you do about that?
You’ll only stop up at first. You’ll get regular after a week or so (though with less junk in you’ll have less junk out so don’t mistake that for being stopped up or lethargic). Make sure you get your veggies and some fruit. Some apple at lunch and a helping of broccoli at supper should move things along just fine. No fiber supplements.
My experience as well. Once I went through a one or two (memory a bit hazy now) week transition period, I have been far — FAR — more regular than in the old higher carbs, with plenty of fiber, days.
That you need to make sure you get sufficient (whatever that means) fiber in your diet in order to avoid colon cancer and other health issues is one of the many ideas that have pretty much been exposed as canards, IMO, by the Primal lifestyle exponents.
Then you’re not eating enough vegetables and fruit, which are definitely encouraged in a Primal lifestyle.
lmfao@Pete!
I read in the Paleo Diet for Athletes, that beans and legumes should be avoided for their high acidity not so much for their carb content as their glycemic index is similar to veggies.
Beans are good for you, because they contain a lot of fiber and fiber is a GOOD carbohydrate. Especially with a diet rich in meat, beans are irreplacable.
None of this has convinced me to go off of beans and legumes. My husband has just found out he is gluten intolerant and his brother is an advocate of the Paleo Diet since he too is gluten intolerant and lactose intolerant as my husband is. We only eat fish. I remember years ago when my mother had colon cancer surgery, the first thing the doctors in L.A. told us was to stop eating beef and red meat. Takes a longer time to break down in the intestinal tract. I see on here people advocate eating bacon and its fat? How can that be good for ANYONE??
How could it NOT be good for anyone? The conventional wisdom that sat fat is bad came from horrible science that was in no way correct. Fat is a wonderful energy source with no intolerance problems.
Christine’s mother’s doctor’s blanket advice was certainly misguided, but any claim that you can eat as much (Primally vetted or not) fat from any source whatsoever with no “intolerance” problems lacks nuance.
To take an extreme example: I recall stories of well-meaning Allied soldiers offering newly liberated concentration camp survivors some of their meat rations, with the unfortunate result that consuming the fat-rich meat killed the intended beneficiaries. Their bodies could not handle more than tiny quantities of meat after long deprivation.
More apropos, I converted to an almost no-grains diet, incorporating far more animal protein than before, 6-odd months ago after going most of my adult life consuming very little beef or pork. I am in my mid-50s, and ate plenty of chicken, tuna, etc. but avoided those protein sources. (For logical enough reasons, given I was then unaware of the distinction between factory farmed and pasture raised meat sources.) I now find if I indulge in beef or pork a couple of days in a row I get a fair case of the runs, even if I take enzymes and/or HCl (a deficiency of which has shown up in my family). Now I am not *sure* that is due to the beef or pork consumption, but it is suspect #1. A couple of days of guzzling coconut milk based kefir gets my system back to normal. I am continuing to experiment to see if something else is involved (and even if it is not, it may be the proteins or PUFAs in the meat/pork rather than the saturated fats).
This post on beans/legumes and the one on white rice are very helpful. Staying thin has never been an issue for me. Now my concern is not losing any more weight. (Yeah, you can hold back on the sympathy cards.) Evidently my body metabolizes carbohydrates well; however, now that I have been made uber-aware of the inflammation costs of triggering insulin production (and from injesting O-6 PUFAs, a different issue) it strikes me as imperative to make sure that I get the maximum nutrition bang for my carb buck. At least I have a better understanding of the somewhat-lower-than-other-grains costs associated with white rice, and likewise for soaked/sprouted beans.
While the “everything in moderation” (or balance) aphorism has become a cliche that people use to justify just about anything, a shades-of-grey perspective is usually more enlightening that a black/white one.
Then I would say to you Jonathan, how is it good for you when it takes beef much longer to break down in the intestinal tract, therefore, creating more carcinogens which in turn cause polyps? The human body does not break down meat quickly. Many people who consume plenty of meat have cholesterol as well as plaque issues in their vessels. What I think is that people have a hard time giving up meat and will find any excuse to eat as much of it as they want.
“Most people that consume plenty of meat have cholesterol”
Everyone has cholesterol because we HAVE TO HAVE IT. Every cell in our body NEEDS cholesterol. And not just HDL. We NEED LDL and we NEED Triglycerides. The “people” you refer to also consume large amounts of grain which inflames the arteries which causes plaque which causes a cholesterol raising response to repair the damage. Cholesterol is not the bad guy, just a bystander.
You worry about colon cancer, then you should cut the “whole” grains (all grains) as all they do is scratch and bind up nutrients and add intolerances. Not a meat problem.
I’ll continue to do what keeps my blood sugar in the non-diabetic range and makes me feel AWESOME with huge amounts of energy to play with my 2 year old. That’s eating a decent amount of meat and huge amount of natural fats.
This may be a good reminder that much of what Mark outlines in all of these blog posts come together as a fairly complete package, with much contingence on giving up grains and the sugar/insulin spike cycle. Good foods may have bad consequences when eaten with bad foods, but very few bad consequences when eaten without the bad food.
Sorry, I’m 48, steak is one of my favorite foods. Has been since I was a child. My latest CT scan for pulmonary calcium came up a ’1′. At 200, there is supposed to be concern. I’m literally less than .5% from perfect.
So, Christine, if cholesterol is so evil, why do our bodies manufacture it?
Clue: Read up Dr Barry Sears, famed pulmonary doctor.
The problem with bread products today is the way we make it. In 1950, when I was a baker, We molded the bread by hand and because there was no refrigeration in the bakery we had to use very little yeast. The reason is the dough would have to sit for 16 to 18 hours, proofing and fermenting, before it was baked. This long fermentation period changed the composition of the dough from a high carbohydrate to high protein. This is accomplished by the fermentation process where the yeast and the Lacto Bacteria consumed the starches and the sugars in the dough creating acetic acid and lactic acid thereby transforming the dough into a high protein product. With todays mass production processes, the dough does not have this long fermentation period and consequently it is a high carbohydrate product.
Tartine BREAD!!! read the book. Yes it seems like this new movement for natural yeast starter and 24 hour rise breads yields an altogether product
Hmmm I can say I was impressed with this blog until this post. Saying “carbs are carbs” is a dangerous statement and untrue. Legumes are VERY beneficial for many people. I speak with years of experience of being in the health care profession and countless nutrition and dietary courses. Eliminating legumes from a diet for some people can be devastating. People need to be weary of taking advice from anyone…whether highly educated or not. People that have devoted years of their life to education of the body and nutrition would disagree with saying all carbs are treated equal.
I think you’re missing the point completely. Legumes may be beneficial… but any benefits can be had from a variety of other primal food sources, and they are likely far more bioavailable than from any legume. Fiber and proteins are more easily gotten through veggies and meat/eggs.
How do you get fiber from animal protein like eggs/meat? You would need to eat A LOT of fruit or veggies to get the same amount of fiber as what’s in just 1/4 cup of lentils (uncooked). Uncooked lentils also have more protein than tuna in the same amount, too. Check the labels for protein and fiber in 1/4 cup uncooked lentils vs. 1/4 cup canned tuna if you don’t believe me. You can also check online to see how much broccoli you would need to eat to get the same amount of fiber as 1/4 cup uncooked lentils. You’d be amazed. Plus, you forgot about how peas, peanuts, and locust (carob) trees grow wild and were eaten by primitive people for eons. Those are all legumes, just like beans, you know. I thought ALL edible seeds were eaten by primitive people, not just nuts. Plus, peanuts and lentils definitely have more protein than nuts and seeds per serving. I could go on, but I don’t have space here…
Just in response to Barry’s comment about refeeds being there for “anabolism” or whatever. They’re actually there to raise leptin and lower gherlin as well as refill glycogen. (though leptin wasn’t really discovered until later than Mauro Di Pasquale’s CKD diet, it still has the same purpose)
I’m a low carb bodybuilder, I manage to keep my bodyfat low while gaining muscle. Not to mention that while in low carb you have heightened IGF-1 (which can do everything insulin can but store fat), testosterone, and growth hormone (due to insulin being non-existent), you know, I think I’ll take that over the insulin-centered bodybuilder who has to bulk/cut every other week from getting too fat.
Just my view.
Oh, and to respond to the post itself:
I’m pretty much in the same thoughtline as Mark, though probably not for the paleolithic aspect, but rather that I’d rather get soluble fiber from beans than say rice or fruit (low carber here). I wouldn’t go overboard with beans, but might as well get some of their benefits. And just a point on carbs, you can’t derive calories from fiber like you can sugar and other net carbs, so I always go by my net carbs as far as “carb counting” goes.
Wowzers.
I just looked up at this post to see whether peas were okay. I think I remember reading something in the Primal Blueprint that listed peas as part of primal meal.
And wow, just wow. For anyone disagreeing with the site, have you read all the posts? And the articles backing the posts? No? Okay, just checking.
And, so peas are okay to eat sometimes? They’re so easy to cook, and so cheap, it was the only reason I wanted to know.
I think having peas once a week might be what I’m aiming for, unless some one says no! (And has proof!)
Regarding FLATULENCE: I used to be a WORLD CLASS farting machine. Broccoli used to send me off the charts. After many attempts at remedies, diet changes etc I have concluded that if I go primal or even semi-primal (yes, including broccoli, cauliflower etc) and in addition ONCE A WEEK I drink a mixture of WATER, BENTONITE, AND PSYLLIUM FLAKES to clean the lower intestinal tract, I seldom fart anymore, even though I’m a beer drinker (craft brews, not Bud). And an added benefit is that I lessen the odds of colon cancer due to the weekly cleansing.
I’ve just read Primal Blueprint, Evolutionary diet and the 4 hour body. While there are many similarities in the nutritional advice the is a wide range of opinion on beans. 4 hour body recommends them, Primal say ok sort of and Evolutionary diet says they are not good. Can anyone makes sense of these different viewpoints?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpv4h_B2n6k
I’m unsure if I can post links here, hopefully I can. Tim Ferriss gets asked the same question by a semi-paleo google employee about the beans and lentils question. He says something along the lines that in his own self experimentation he didn’t find any negative to eating beans and that lentils positively effected his fat loss.
Blood Type Diet has an answer.
Maybe Mark Sisson and Peter Adamo can talk and come to an agreement on some things.
Somehow I doubt it.
hey mark, I read the Primal Blueprint cover to cover, and what actually struck me as the main reason to avoid legumes was their lectin content. My research lead me to the general understanding that lectins disrupt proper digestion and can cause allergic reactions.
However, my research also lead me to the conclusion that nuts and seeds contain lectins as well. It’s not obvious to me how to reconcile this new knowledge.
My question is as follows: if Grok were eating his PERFECT diet, would it include NO lectin or LIMITED lectin?
If the answer is limited, doesn’t that imply that we are supposed to be eating some things that we are allergic to?
What about bean sprouts? How do they shake out?
the problem with the primal diet is u asume u know how we evolved .. what about the massive pyramids they found under the ocean off the coast of japan, or the sumarian tablets that state we farmed befor 10k bc, and then climate change fourced us back into hunter gatherers, then the climate got beter and we started farming again. u cant base ur diet off of the western view of history, we find new things every day that show we have no clue the true history of the human…. that said i think things like beans and nixtamalized corn, are just as important AS CLEAN animal meats. if carbs r so bad, wy did the mayans not suffer from obesity?? they were ppl of the corn. 4 real pl get ur head out of the western view of history, you will find both grains and red meat r the BOTH the best staples of human life. ..the problem not with agricultural revolution, its with the industrial revolution.. nixtamalized corn with lentils and steak/fish/chciken. and veggies. as perfect as it gets. and as far as building muscle or loosing fat go, it has nothing to do with carbs or protein . it has to do with hormones plain and simple. and its the factory food that gets hormones all messed up. thats wy sum ppl (like me) can eat 10 loafs of bread every day and drink a bottle of olive oil with it, and not gain ANY WEIGHT at ALL!! just makes me feel like crap cuz overloads the metabolism. so 4 real sum 1 pl do research on true origins of the human, we did not just evolve the way we been told. ther is no much evidence of that
Although legumes may not be primal, they do seem to be good for people, but as long as they have been both thoroughly cooked and fermented. Even soya beans. According to Dr. Mercola, soya beans that have been fermented are actually good for people. For example, natto, miso, and tempeh. Also, eating legumes that have been fermented won’t cause flatulence as the they have already been fermented. Eating legumes that are not fermented will cause flatulence because the beans are being fermented in the body, and the flatulence gas is the byproduct of this fermentation.
I’ve been reading this site for the last few days, and bought the kindle version of the book though I’ve not read it yet. Having said that I’ve already begun to replace pasta bread fruitjuice etc with more “Primal” alternatives.
I dont claim to have the experience of many on these forums, however I would be interested in the assertion that the carbs in beans end up being metabolised as carbs in say, grain or fruit.
According to one source ( http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/resistantstarch.htm ) about half of the carbohydrate in legumes is in the form of “resistant starch” ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistant_starch ) which not turned into glucose, but is digested in the small intestine into short chain fatty acids (SCFA), which is processed via the lipid metabolism, and as such should be considered as fats from a macronutrient point of view.
One of these SCFAs called Butyric Acid, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyric_acid ) appears to be a likely candidate for the reason high fibre diets reduce the incidence of Bowel cancer.
I’d be interested if anyone has better research information than the ones I’ve mentioned above, or if I’m way off the mark.
Thanks
John
I just ate beans today for the first time in a while. Oh, my! The word “explosive” comes to mind… Even as a former-vegetarian (~20 years), I am definitely not adapted to eating beans…
I just say such a relief to get someone who actually knows what theyre discussing on the web. You certainly discover how to bring a concern to light making it important. The best way to need to look at this and see why side from the story. I cant believe you are not popular when you definitely possess the gift.
Could you address two things please.
One: It’s been said that a diet high in red meat could make a person more prone to colin cancer. Do you think this is possible?
Two: What about the fact that red meats are high in saturated fats which get turned into cholesterol in your body. I have a high LDL cholesterol count and eating lots of red meat could possibly be a death sentence for me. Why do many humans have to deal with high cholesterol if are ancestors ate so much red meat?
On what evidence are you basing the assumption that “saturated fat is turned into cholesterol in your body?” No, plasma cholesterol level has not been shown to be a scientifically validated causal indicator of
heart disease risk. Yes, the government has been relying on a faulty over-interpreted hypothesis for decades.